Phelan Talks About Lincoln

[jpd80]

The cheerleaders on here are in complete denial about present day sales and totally optimistic that it will be turned around 180 degrees, even though Ford is only spending $1 billion on seven new or refreshed vehicles. I think 100,000 sales/year is doable, but based upon what I've heard so far I don't see how anyone could be super optimisic.

Seven new or heavily refreshed Lincoln vehicles for $1 billion by 2014,

it's not the complete picture - just the bit Ford wanted to share for now....

 

FB, why do you always use sales as your prime metric, why not higher transaction prices?

If indeed Lincoln is trying to establish itself as more than an entry level luxury brand,

then it stand to reason that the value of the vehicles must rise before sales do.

 

I understand Zan's POV, he will judge Lincoln's performance by what is delivered to the showroom,

but I see his assessment metric only works as a yes /no pass/fail assessment of what Lincoln should be.

 

At the moment the best anyone can hope for is Lincoln filling the gaps between is and where it should be,

until we see several generations of vehicles, all that can be hoped for is evolution in the right direction

because there are no dedicated platforms to perform a quantum jump to the ideal vehicle range.

 

Buyers are not all the same and probably a lot more forgiving than we credit them with,

all Lincoln has to do is start building the style quality level expected of vehicles in that range.

and like Zan, the market will judge and either get on board or tell Lincoln it has to do more.

Edited November 6, 2012 by jpd80

[ZanatWork]

Actually, I keep getting notifications from different posters about them liking my posts, especially in this thread. Pointing out the akirby "you should be able to tell everything from spy shots" legendary stupidity was very popular.

 

Here's what the cheerleaders don't understand:

 

anyone coming here KNOWS it's gonna be a slow process, we see the same posted articles and links. We KNOW it's gonna be about volume leaders first. We KNOW 150 employees got hired. We KNOW all that stuff, likely from the same source you do...although it's been my experience that anyone that reads one source of car news usually reads at least a couple more. I read several, which is likely about average.

 

We KNOW all the babble you insist on repeating to us, mmmkay? Got it. Most likely understand it better than you.

 

Some of us (and judging from the notifications I mentioned, some just don't speak as loudly as others) are skeptical, deservedly so, because the changes aren't out where we can touch and drive them yet. Upgrading the dealers was good, but also just plain necessary and obvious to even be in the game henceforth. The dealers, the studio employees, Jim Farley...all are going as far as the product takes them, not the other way around. Serving Jamaica Blue Mountain coffee to potential customers reclining on lobby leather couches with golf and yacht publications strewn about tastefully won't help anything if the MKS that's test-driven can't hold its own against other luxury offerings in its price/size class.

 

Maybe what's not being sufficiently communicated, here, is that most of the news is about things AROUND the vehicles, or about vehicles we haven't begun to see yet (as the MKZ already has the "it was almost done before the new team came around" excuse pre-filed by some). Since the last Lincoln to be anything beyond a tarted-up Ford was the LS...there's been a lot of time to build skepticism, concern, and frustration.

 

I'll offer this, though: as I keep looking at MKZ shots, I find that I am genuinely appreciative of the rear styling in particular. I figured out why, and it's both a win for the styling and a win for people that love some older FoMoCo products:

 

From the rear, it shows lineage to the gorgeous Torino GT of circa 1970. I tried to post pics for comparison, but I got a "you are not allowed...in this community" window. Dammit.

 

We can get behind this styling direction.

Edited November 6, 2012 by ZanatWork

[NickF1011]

Actually, I keep getting notifications from different posters about them liking my posts, especially in this thread. Pointing out the akirby "you should be able to tell everything from spy shots" legendary stupidity was very popular.

 

Here's what the cheerleaders don't understand:

 

anyone coming here KNOWS it's gonna be a slow process, we see the same posted articles and links. We KNOW it's gonna be about volume leaders first. We KNOW 150 employees got hired. We KNOW all that stuff, likely from the same source you do...although it's been my experience that anyone that reads one source of car news usually reads at least a couple more. I read several, which is likely about average.

 

We KNOW all the babble you insist on repeating to us, mmmkay? Got it. Most likely understand it better than you.

 

Some of us (and judging from the notifications I mentioned, some just don't speak as loudly as others) are skeptical, deservedly so, because the changes aren't out where we can touch and drive them yet. Upgrading the dealers was good, but also just plain necessary and obvious to even be in the game henceforth. The dealers, the studio employees, Jim Farley...all are going as far as the product takes them, not the other way around. Serving Jamaica Blue Mountain coffee to potential customers reclining on lobby leather couches with golf and yacht publications strewn about tastefully won't help anything if the MKS that's test-driven can't hold its own against other luxury offerings in its price/size class.

 

Maybe what's not being sufficiently communicated, here, is that most of the news is about things AROUND the vehicles, or about vehicles we haven't begun to see yet (as the MKZ already has the "it was almost done before the new team came around" excuse pre-filed by some). Since the last Lincoln to be anything beyond a tarted-up Ford was the LS...there's been a lot of time to build skepticism, concern, and frustration.

 

I'll offer this, though: as I keep looking at MKZ shots, I find that I am genuinely appreciative of the rear styling in particular. I figured out why, and it's both a win for the styling and a win for people that love some older FoMoCo products:

 

From the rear, it shoes lineage to the gorgeous Torino GT of circa 1970. I tried to post pics for comparison, but I got a "you are not allowed...in this community" window. Dammit.

 

We can get behind this styling direction.

 

It's fine to be skeptical. I am too. But I won't proclaim that the current plan isn't working (ahem FordBuyer) when none of the current plan has even made its way into customers' hands yet. We fire back with the same defenses because we are defending against the same arguments. :shrug:

Edited November 6, 2012 by NickF1011

[akirby]

In other words, you are completely unable to comprehend how Ford has changed its approach to Lincoln internally and understand why those changes, along with the current management team's track record over the last 5 years in turning around Ford, make us optimistic that what Lincoln is doing will be successful over time even if they don't build the vehicles you want them to build.

 

More importantly - you fail to recognize the huge changes Lincoln has made internally regardless of what happens with the end products.

 

None of us know whether it will be successful or not but it sure as hell isn't the same plan that Lincoln has ever had before.

 

And I'm glad that you get amusement from your buddies who send you private messages. There are plenty of closed minded people on this site who are just as myopic as you are when it comes to understanding how to run a business. That doesn't make you all right - it just makes you a group of myopic trolls who can't see the forest for the trees.

[OHV 16V]

In other words, you are completely unable to comprehend how Ford has changed its approach to Lincoln internally and understand why those changes, along with the current management team's track record over the last 5 years in turning around Ford, make us optimistic that what Lincoln is doing will be successful over time even if they don't build the vehicles you want them to build.

 

More importantly - you fail to recognize the huge changes Lincoln has made internally regardless of what happens with the end products.

 

None of us know whether it will be successful or not but it sure as hell isn't the same plan that Lincoln has ever had before.

 

And I'm glad that you get amusement from your buddies who send you private messages. There are plenty of closed minded people on this site who are just as myopic as you are when it comes to understanding how to run a business. That doesn't make you all right - it just makes you a group of myopic trolls who can't see the forest for the trees.

 

I think he does comprehend the changes just fine, it's just that as much as you see those changes and are optimistic, he sees them and is pessimistic until he sees proof otherwise. He has just as much right to his viewpoint as yours. For every time you applaud these things they're doing with Lincoln, he has the right to say something negative until, again, he gets his proof.

 

Really, no one here should be calling out anyone on their opinion of how things are going with Lincoln on this forum at all, NONE of us can say yet that what they're doing is going to save the brand or not. So, those who are optimistic should be able to openly cheer for these unprecedented steps being taken without getting barbecued by the skeptics. At the same time, someone's harsh criticisms shouldn't get them attacked by the optimistic crowd either, as they have no proof that it will work.

 

Everyone, like it or not, has the right to be optimistic/skeptical, and until the proof is out there for the argument either way, how is it fair to jump down someone's throat for their viewpoint regardless of whether they fall into the optimist/pessimist camp?

 

And akirby, this isn't just personally directed at you, but to everyone debating this on here. I just quoted your post because your verbiage indicated that you and Zan aren't ever going to be on the same page till this whole thing plays out.

Edited November 6, 2012 by OHV 16V

[NickF1011]

I think he does comprehend the changes just fine, it's just that as much as you see those changes and are optimistic, he sees them and is pessimistic until he sees proof otherwise.

 

Just don't see how you can argue for or against a change until it has actually taken effect. Very few of us are calling the changes a success. We're simply saying "Can't we at least wait and see???"

Edited November 6, 2012 by NickF1011

[OHV 16V]

Just don't see how you can argue for or against a change until it has actually taken effect. Very few of us are calling the changes a success. We're simply saying "Can't we at least wait and see???"

 

I understand where you're coming from, just that I see the folks who are skeptical getting toasted because they're not in the optimistic camp, and they post a negative opinion. Which I believe they're entitled to do as much as those who are excited about what's going on with Lincoln. I just don't see how anyone can tell someone they should or shouldn't be excited about this stuff yet.

[aneekr]

...it just makes you a group of myopic trolls who can't see the forest for the trees.

 

Until and unless Ford Motor Company can demonstrate with actual evidence to investors, dealerships, and potential customers that they can see the forest for the trees as it relates to the Lincoln brand, I'll gladly join the ranks of the skeptical and cautious even if that group overlaps with "myopic trolls".

 

Generalizations about the current management team's track record (and even about Mr. Farley's specifically) are not sufficient when it comes to affirmation of Ford's commitment to achieving the goals it set forth for Lincoln. The brand's transformation into a "viable luxury brand", as Mark Phelan phrased it in his Detroit Free Press column, is a monumental undertaking - one that makes the concerns expressed by ZanatWork, FordBuyer, me, and others on BlueOvalForums and elsewhere eminently reasonable.

[NickF1011]

I understand where you're coming from, just that I see the folks who are skeptical getting toasted because they're not in the optimistic camp, and they post a negative opinion. Which I believe they're entitled to do as much as those who are excited about what's going on with Lincoln. I just don't see how anyone can tell someone they should or shouldn't be excited about this stuff yet.

 

It's fine to be skeptical. Hard not to be until we see any tangible changes. What should be toasted though is those saying the plan didn't work or isn't working. It's just impossible to make such a statement. I agree it's also impossible to say it will work.

[NickF1011]

Until and unless Ford Motor Company can demonstrate with actual evidence to investors, dealerships, and potential customers that they can see the forest for the trees as it relates to the Lincoln brand, I'll gladly join the ranks of the skeptical and cautious even if that group overlaps with "myopic trolls".

 

Generalizations about the current management team's track record (and even about Mr. Farley's specifically) are not sufficient when it comes to affirmation of Ford's commitment to achieving the goals it set forth for Lincoln. The brand's transformation into a "viable luxury brand", as Mark Phelan phrased it in his Detroit Free Press column, is a monumental undertaking - one that makes the concerns expressed by ZanatWork, FordBuyer, me, and others on BlueOvalForums and elsewhere eminently reasonable.

 

Skepticism is fine. Damnation isn't.

[akirby]

Until and unless Ford Motor Company can demonstrate with actual evidence to investors, dealerships, and potential customers that they can see the forest for the trees as it relates to the Lincoln brand, I'll gladly join the ranks of the skeptical and cautious even if that group overlaps with "myopic trolls".

 

Generalizations about the current management team's track record (and even about Mr. Farley's specifically) are not sufficient when it comes to affirmation of Ford's commitment to achieving the goals it set forth for Lincoln. The brand's transformation into a "viable luxury brand", as Mark Phelan phrased it in his Detroit Free Press column, is a monumental undertaking - one that makes the concerns expressed by ZanatWork, FordBuyer, me, and others on BlueOvalForums and elsewhere eminently reasonable.

 

Go back to the original discussion. The question was not whether Ford's new plan for Lincoln was going to be successful or not. The assertion from Zan was that Lincoln was simply doing the same thing they have been doing for the last 20 years. That was it. Nothing about how successful or unsuccessful it would be - just whether or not it was any different than what had been done in the past. And anyone who looks at the changes Ford has made with Lincoln the last 2 years can see that it is an entirely different approach except they are still sharing platforms with Fords for now.

 

We pointed out all of the things that Lincoln was doing differently - unique sheetmetal, features, dealership experience, etc. etc. etc. Based on those FACTS it should be easy to conclude that Lincoln's approach this time is different than any time in the recent past. And THAT was the question. Period.

 

To ignore all those real changes and instead focus on what's currently in showrooms and current sales figures is myopic and doesn't address the original assertion.

 

Summary:

 

Is Ford doing things differently with Lincoln this time around? Yes.

 

Will it be successful? Don't know yet. Too early to tell.

[RichardJensen]

He has just as much right to his viewpoint as yours.

He's entitled to opinions, true.

 

However, he's not entitled to logical inconsistencies.

 

If you say something like this:

 

Lincoln wants to be a luxury marque, but it needs to do massive changes to get there...which has been the case for untold years.

 

And respond to any challenge by

 

1 - engaging in incredibly abusive speech

 

and

 

2 - dismissing any change that has occurred thus far as immaterial, unproven, or unrelated to the subject (dealer remodels, new hires, closure of Mercury)

 

You open yourself up for, IMO, valid criticism for using a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, and for generally answering logic with increasingly strident and abusive rhetoric.

 

I would also note that Zan's language is--probably--the most abusive on this topic, even as Zan claims to be the victim of abuse by other forum members.

Edited November 6, 2012 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

when it comes to affirmation of Ford's commitment

If you're going to argue that Ford lacks the commitment to see through the restructuring of Lincoln, you can do one of three things:

 

1 - argue from failures of Ford's current management to see through restructurings in the recent past.

 

2 - argue that Ford's unknown sales and profit targets for Lincoln are impractical, given their generally unknown future product plans and investment strategy.

 

3 - insist that they're going to fail for no reason whatsoever

[ZanatWork]

He's entitled to opinions, true.

 

However, he's not entitled to logical inconsistencies.

 

If you say something like this:

 

 

 

And respond to any challenge by

 

1 - engaging in incredibly abusive speech

 

and

 

2 - dismissing any change that has occurred thus far as immaterial, unproven, or unrelated to the subject (dealer remodels, new hires, closure of Mercury)

 

You open yourself up for, IMO, valid criticism for using a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, and for generally answering logic with increasingly strident and abusive rhetoric.

 

I would also note that Zan's language is--probably--the most abusive on this topic, even as Zan claims to be the victim of abuse by other forum members.

 

Well, I'll quit being "abusive" when my normal opinions quit being dismissed. People that have never met me insist on saying what I "will do", apparently being completely incapable of critical thinking, and falsely representing my opinions by just insisting their own are true. Misrepresentation is worse than insults, in my book anyway, so if people are going to insist they know my mind despite not knowing me...they deserve, as all stupid people do, to be treated horribly. Given the BS and babble spouted by some here, I'd say the abuse score is about tied. Do not claim to speak for someone you do not know, or you're a lying sack of crap...deserving to be treated as such.

 

Kinda simple, that. I haven't been terribly abusive, per se, but calling out someone as dishonest when they are isn't abuse anyway. It's truth.

 

I've said my hopes were that the MKZ would bring better news repeatedly, but those statements apparently count for nothing while complete speculation on my future posts is supposedly legit and coherent? That argument wouldn't hold water anywhere.

Edited November 6, 2012 by ZanatWork

[Edstock]

Well, I'll quit being "abusive" when my normal opinions quit being dismissed.

 

Remember, if you can, that an opinion with no facts to back it is just an opinion. If it's a contentious opinion with no facts, then you will get whatever reaction other BON members feel is suitable, including dismissal. If you don't like 'em, well, that's tough. Capisce?

[TomServo92]

I'm going back to the political discussions in the off-topic section. It's nicer there.

[fordmantpw]

I'm going back to the political discussions in the off-topic section. It's nicer there.

 

Said no one ever....

[PREMiERdrum]

Said no one ever....

POTW.

[2b2]

...The dealers, the studio employees, Jim Farley...all are going as far as the product takes them, not the other way around...

 

Maybe what's not being sufficiently communicated, here, is that most of the news is about things AROUND the vehicles...

 

Very Much

 

 

...Really, no one here should be calling out anyone on their opinion of how things are going with Lincoln on this forum at all, NONE of us can say yet that what they're doing is going to save the brand or not...

 

Ditto!

[TomServo92]

 

 

Said no one ever....

 

Likely true but this thread is giving it a good run..

[RichardJensen]

my normal opinions quit being dismissed.

Your opinions would find greater acceptance if you would stop trying to force them on us as fact.

[ZanatWork]

Your opinions would find greater acceptance if you would stop trying to force them on us as fact.

 

What I've said most is that I'm obviously eager for results to be in for the MKZ...which is the truth, a FACT. I was portrayed as already disapproving of it...which happened, another FACT. Before that, it was the FACT that Lincoln has failed to back their rhetoric for a very long time.

 

Is it a FACT that I've growled about Lincoln a lot? Yep...growls I backed with FACTS. The counters for most of this is speculation of what might be...but isn't tangible yet. These opinions have been rammed about plenty, another FACT...but nothing from all that is in the metal yet, FACT.

 

I'm dealing in more facts than opinion. The arguments against me are largely dealing in speculation. FACT.

[RichardJensen]

Also, I want you all to see something:

 

Edstock: "As a Porsche slappy"

 

Edstock (again): "you're a Porsche slappy"

 

akirby: "I know you can't understand anything other than sales volume"

 

Zanatwork: "people that either ignore automotive history and/or think being a "Ford guy" means being a spineless little yes man are the ones defending it?"

 

Zanatwork: "kiddies"

 

Zanatwork: "that's just full-on ignorance and tragically useless behavior"

 

Extreme 4x4: "those who fail to see any difference in Fords commitment to Lincoln, are lazy"

 

Edstock: "If you have Attention Deficit Disorder"

 

Edstock: "if your head-space sucks, well, that's your problem"

 

Edstock: "that's a Porsche slappy"

 

akirby: "negatards"

 

Zanatwork: "you know less than nothing, akirby"

 

 

Edstock: "Your attitude sucks"

 

Zanatwork: "It's borderline useless and worth NOTHING to just say "due to be replaced""

 

Zanatwork: "the "spaz at criticism of Lincoln" crowd"

 

Zanatwork: "We can't all be akirby"

 

akirby: "Well you got that part right"

 

akirby: "When Fordbuyer is the only one agreeing with you - you should be very worried."

 

Zanatwork: "And you're already there."

 

Zanatwork: "essentially not being a drool-soaked bobble-headed yes man"

 

Silvrsvt: "Just gives him a reason to complain about it"

 

Zanatwork: "It's that whole desire for facts and real results, thing. I know some find it horribly unfair."

 

Zanatwork: "Claiming to know the mind of someone likely over a thousand miles away is pure stupidity"

 

Zanatwork: "I've cited truly stupid things you've said"

 

Zanatwork: "Gloria is potentially stupid to make that statement...and if so, should consider getting a forehead tattoo to that effect as a warning to others"

 

Zanatwork: "you should be used to this word by now, sparky"

 

Zanatwork: "the inane and essentially vacant counter posts"

 

Zanatwork: "Gloria's summation is conjecture and stupidity, no matter how you try to decorate it."

 

Zanatwork: "within your own babble."

 

Zanatwork: "you're showing your continuing hack-tastic job of being a "yes man" toward Ford"

 

Zanatwork: "you're proving to be a complete hypocrite"

 

Zanatwork: "Welcome to being full of crap. See my advice regarding a forehead tattoo to another poster."

 

Zanatwork: "You should consider asking to be banned."

 

Zanatwork: "The hypocrisy here is...astounding."

 

Zanatwork: "You're completely shaming yourself, how can't you see that?"

 

Zanatwork: "full-on ridiculous, dishonest"

 

Zanatwork: "I don't know what's been your issue this year, but get help...therapy...maybe a pet, if you can keep from pre-writing its actions."

 

Zanatwork: "I think you should admit you do NOT personally know me, are generalizing, and essentially proving yourself to be a pathetic liar"

 

Zanatwork: "your jack-assed genralizations"

 

Zanatwork: "you'll ignore as liars do"

 

Zanatwork: "I await your likely spin and ignoring of my points that don't fit in your narrow view"

 

Zanatwork: "which is like stamping your feet and screaming "LA LA LA LA" so you don't have to open your mind"

 

Zanatwork: "you're being at least as closed-minded as you claim I am"

 

Zanatwork: "can we be done with Ricky's World of Fiction"

 

 

akirby: "And anyone who disagrees is stupid."

 

FordBuyer: "it's the BOF Mafia who are complete and utter cheerleaders in the extreme"

 

FordBuyer: "you have to be a cheerleader or be attacked if not"

 

FordBuyer: "you are supposed to be this cheerleader believer. In other words, blind faith"

 

FordBuyer: "Sorry cheerleaders"

 

FordBuyer: "the BOF Mafia is NOT."

 

FordBuyer: "The cheerleaders on here"

 

fordmantpw: "typing "OKAY" is too much for these folks"

 

akirby: "When Fordbuyer is the only one agreeing with you - you should be very worried."

 

Zanatwork: "Pointing out the akirby "you should be able to tell everything from spy shots" legendary stupidity"

 

Zanatwork: "what the cheerleaders don't understand"

 

Zanatwork: "all the babble you insist on repeating"

 

Zanatwork: "Most likely understand it better than you"

 

 

akirby: "There are plenty of closed minded people on this site who are just as myopic as you are"

 

akirby: "it just makes you a group of myopic trolls who can't see the forest for the trees."

 

Zanatwork: "they deserve, as all stupid people do, to be treated horribly. Given the BS and babble spouted by some here"

 

Zanatwork: "you're a lying sack of crap...deserving to be treated as such."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zanatwork: "I haven't been terribly abusive, per se"

 

The insults delivered by those on the skeptical side are two shades of orange. The insults delivered by those on the optimistic side are black.

 

Please feel free to review my work and add any insults you think that I have overlooked.

 

By my count, the 'optimists' delivered 17 insults, Zanatwork delivered 38 insults, and FordBuyer delivered 6. That's a total of 44 vs. 17.

 

It's difficult to claim that you have been mistreated, when you have, as it would seem, 'given' far better than you've 'got'.

Edited November 7, 2012 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

The arguments against me are largely dealing in speculation. FACT.

This is all rhetoric, and unanswerable. As Pauli said, "It's not even wrong."

[Ron W.]

Also, I want you all to see something:

 

Edstock: "As a Porsche slappy"

 

Edstock (again): "you're a Porsche slappy"

 

akirby: "I know you can't understand anything other than sales volume"

 

Zanatwork: "people that either ignore automotive history and/or think being a "Ford guy" means being a spineless little yes man are the ones defending it?"

 

Zanatwork: "kiddies"

 

Zanatwork: "that's just full-on ignorance and tragically useless behavior"

 

Extreme 4x4: "those who fail to see any difference in Fords commitment to Lincoln, are lazy"

 

Edstock: "If you have Attention Deficit Disorder"

 

Edstock: "if your head-space sucks, well, that's your problem"

 

Edstock: "that's a Porsche slappy"

 

akirby: "negatards"

 

Zanatwork: "you know less than nothing, akirby"

 

 

Edstock: "Your attitude sucks"

 

Zanatwork: "It's borderline useless and worth NOTHING to just say "due to be replaced""

 

Zanatwork: "the "spaz at criticism of Lincoln" crowd"

 

Zanatwork: "We can't all be akirby"

 

akirby: "Well you got that part right"

 

akirby: "When Fordbuyer is the only one agreeing with you - you should be very worried."

 

Zanatwork: "And you're already there."

 

Zanatwork: "essentially not being a drool-soaked bobble-headed yes man"

 

Silvrsvt: "Just gives him a reason to complain about it"

 

Zanatwork: "It's that whole desire for facts and real results, thing. I know some find it horribly unfair."

 

Zanatwork: "Claiming to know the mind of someone likely over a thousand miles away is pure stupidity"

 

Zanatwork: "I've cited truly stupid things you've said"

 

Zanatwork: "Gloria is potentially stupid to make that statement...and if so, should consider getting a forehead tattoo to that effect as a warning to others"

 

Zanatwork: "you should be used to this word by now, sparky"

 

Zanatwork: "the inane and essentially vacant counter posts"

 

Zanatwork: "Gloria's summation is conjecture and stupidity, no matter how you try to decorate it."

 

Zanatwork: "within your own babble."

 

Zanatwork: "you're showing your continuing hack-tastic job of being a "yes man" toward Ford"

 

Zanatwork: "you're proving to be a complete hypocrite"

 

Zanatwork: "Welcome to being full of crap. See my advice regarding a forehead tattoo to another poster."

 

Zanatwork: "You should consider asking to be banned."

 

Zanatwork: "The hypocrisy here is...astounding."

 

Zanatwork: "You're completely shaming yourself, how can't you see that?"

 

Zanatwork: "full-on ridiculous, dishonest"

 

Zanatwork: "I don't know what's been your issue this year, but get help...therapy...maybe a pet, if you can keep from pre-writing its actions."

 

Zanatwork: "I think you should admit you do NOT personally know me, are generalizing, and essentially proving yourself to be a pathetic liar"

 

Zanatwork: "your jack-assed genralizations"

 

Zanatwork: "you'll ignore as liars do"

 

Zanatwork: "I await your likely spin and ignoring of my points that don't fit in your narrow view"

 

Zanatwork: "which is like stamping your feet and screaming "LA LA LA LA" so you don't have to open your mind"

 

Zanatwork: "you're being at least as closed-minded as you claim I am"

 

Zanatwork: "can we be done with Ricky's World of Fiction"

 

 

akirby: "And anyone who disagrees is stupid."

 

FordBuyer: "it's the BOF Mafia who are complete and utter cheerleaders in the extreme"

 

FordBuyer: "you have to be a cheerleader or be attacked if not"

 

FordBuyer: "you are supposed to be this cheerleader believer. In other words, blind faith"

 

FordBuyer: "Sorry cheerleaders"

 

FordBuyer: "the BOF Mafia is NOT."

 

FordBuyer: "The cheerleaders on here"

 

fordmantpw: "typing "OKAY" is too much for these folks"

 

akirby: "When Fordbuyer is the only one agreeing with you - you should be very worried."

 

Zanatwork: "Pointing out the akirby "you should be able to tell everything from spy shots" legendary stupidity"

 

Zanatwork: "what the cheerleaders don't understand"

 

Zanatwork: "all the babble you insist on repeating"

 

Zanatwork: "Most likely understand it better than you"

 

 

akirby: "There are plenty of closed minded people on this site who are just as myopic as you are"

 

akirby: "it just makes you a group of myopic trolls who can't see the forest for the trees."

 

Zanatwork: "they deserve, as all stupid people do, to be treated horribly. Given the BS and babble spouted by some here"

 

Zanatwork: "you're a lying sack of crap...deserving to be treated as such."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zanatwork: "I haven't been terribly abusive, per se"

 

The insults delivered by those on the skeptical side are two shades of orange. The insults delivered by those on the optimistic side are black.

 

Please feel free to review my work and add any insults you think that I have overlooked.

 

By my count, the 'optimists' delivered 17 insults, Zanatwork delivered 38 insults, and FordBuyer delivered 6. That's a total of 44 vs. 17.

 

It's difficult to claim that you have been mistreated, when you have, as it would seem, 'given' far better than you've 'got'.

 

 

I can't beleive you even wasted your time to put this together.