Anthony Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 It's pretty much out of the picture already with only 12 sold, as a BRAND Lincoln is down 9.1. 12 units has little to no effect on total sales. But if you are comparing the Lincoln brand Nov 2012 / Nov 2011, there were almost a thousand Town Cars sold in the same month last year. That's almost a thousand more added to Nov 2011 total....which skews the percentage sine the car is no longer sold. Pulling out the numbers for the TC you get (as Edstock noted above) a gain of 6.4% vs. November of last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Holy crap, C-Max did 4848 units! That's pretty darn good for the second month of sales. Could Ford really have a rising sales star to challenge the Prius? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 But if you are comparing the Lincoln brand Nov 2012 / Nov 2011, there were almost a thousand Town Cars sold in the same month last year. That's almost a thousand more added to Nov 2011 total....which skews the percentage sine the car is no longer sold. Pulling out the numbers for the TC you get (as Edstock noted above) a gain of 6.4% vs. November of last year. Sure, and you could pull everything out except the MKT and show a 64% increase. Sales would be down substantially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Barely! Still as a group Lincoln is down by volume, MKZ is down quite a bit for the month (not unexpected considering the 2013 hoopla). Hard to imagine the MKT is the bright spot!??? November % Year-To-Date % 2012 2011 Change 2012 2011 Change LINCOLN BRAND MKZ 1,335 2,083 -35.9 26,423 25,094 5.3 MKS 1,065 1,017 4.7 11,174 10,841 3.1 Town Car 12 245 -95.1 949 9,132 -89.6 MKX 2,108 1,983 6.3 22,490 20,714 8.6 MKT 537 324 65.7 6,441 4,450 44.7 Navigator 675 653 3.4 7,289 7,009 4.0 Lincoln Brand 5,732 6,305 -9.1 74,766 77,240 -3.2 I must have misread a sales table. I thought the MKZ was also up over last year. Taking Town Car out of the numbers shows you how the CURRENT vehicles are doing compared to last year which is more important going forward. Especially when you consider those Town Cars were likely losing money due to low plant utilization and fire sale fleet pricing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Ford was less than 9000 sales less than GM. Wow F-series slaughtered GMT900's last month. I think you are not properly focused on the real competition here. Toyota 161,695 + Subaru 28,206 = 189,901 GM 186,505 Ford 177,673 This is the first time Toyota including Subaru (which Toyota controls) has outsold GM that I can remember. Toyota+Subaru has been outselling Ford for pretty much the whole year. Edited December 4, 2012 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Tsunami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 but for now they have to be very good at being very middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 I must have misread a sales table. I thought the MKZ was also up over last year. Taking Town Car out of the numbers shows you how the CURRENT vehicles are doing compared to last year which is more important going forward. Especially when you consider those Town Cars were likely losing money due to low plant utilization and fire sale fleet pricing. Technically you were right, MKZ is up YTD, but The most CURRENT Nov figure with only 12 TC sales, which has virtually no effect on total sales, is down 9% YTD is down only 3% (w/ more TC sales)...........totally contradicts what you state, so they are doing WORSE. Not that I expect it to stay that way with the new MKZ. I expect them to be up 10% next year at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Comparing month over month totals as a way of establishing a 'trend' is almost as bad as comparing two consecutive stock trades to establish a 'trend'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Technically you were right, MKZ is up YTD, but The most CURRENT Nov figure with only 12 TC sales, which has virtually no effect on total sales, is down 9% YTD is down only 3% (w/ more TC sales)...........totally contradicts what you state, so they are doing WORSE. Not that I expect it to stay that way with the new MKZ. I expect them to be up 10% next year at least. Aha - I was looking at YTD sales. That explains it. You're not looking at the TC sales correctly. If you take TC sales out of BOTH the 2011 and 2012 numbers you get a much different picture. And since the vehicles that count going forward are the current ones - not the ones that were already killed - it is good that all the other vehicles are doing BETTER than last year. And no doubt the new MKZ will add to that. Or look at it another way - the vehicles that make money are up and the one that lost money is gone. Win/Win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 I think you are not properly focused on the real competition here. Toyota 161,695 + Subaru 28,206 = 189,901 GM 186,505 Ford 177,673 This is the first time Toyota including Subaru (which Toyota controls) has outsold GM that I can remember. Toyota+Subaru has been outselling Ford for pretty much the whole year. Even when Ford had a controlling 33% stake in Mazda, nobody ever added their sales figures to Ford's. Why are you doing that with Subaru, given Toyota's much smaller 16.5% stake? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Because it makes Toyota look better, and Ford look worse. I thought you knew that................... silly man. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Because it makes Toyota look better, and Ford look worse. I thought you knew that................... silly man. What should be worrying for Toyota is the level of conquest sales drifting to C-Max, it seems t be checking all the right boxes for ex Prius buyers looking for something new... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) On another note, GM is claiming that Volt sales were down because Californian dealers were practically out of stock, It's good to see Ford and GM with electric vehicles that don't exactly compete with each other ripping into the market. I gotta say, I like that much more than when they try beating each other up... Edited December 4, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 ATS 2,152 CTS 2,798 Coincidence that CTS sales are down significantly in the first two months the ATS has been available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Aha - I was looking at YTD sales. That explains it. You're not looking at the TC sales correctly. If you take TC sales out of BOTH the 2011 and 2012 numbers you get a much different picture. And since the vehicles that count going forward are the current ones - not the ones that were already killed - it is good that all the other vehicles are doing BETTER than last year. And no doubt the new MKZ will add to that. Or look at it another way - the vehicles that make money are up and the one that lost money is gone. Win/Win. Yes, every model is in the +, except for the R.I.P. TC. But none have eclipsed the Town Car sales that were at least 25% (? not sure actually!) of volume. The TC tooling must have been paid off by 2005. It was largely gravy. But it was old and I doubt it would pass upcoming crash tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 The TC tooling must have been paid off by 2005. It was largely gravy. But it was old and I doubt it would pass upcoming crash tests. The cost of keeping STAP running only building a few fleet vehicles had to be a money losing situation regardless of the tooling and other sunk costs. And I wasn't really looking at it from a bottom line perspective - I was just saying that what the TC sold last year isn't really relevant going foward. The only thing that's relevant going forward is the success of the current products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Tooling was paid off, big frigging deal. Union workers still had to get paid, and plant to be operated. But most of all, dumping the old dinosaurs into fleets hurt Lincoln brand equity. "Town Car" is now a generic term for livery cabs. No upscale car buyer will drive "the helps car". Edited December 4, 2012 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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