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Joe771476

New light & medium duty news

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7 hours ago, jpd80 said:

You're forgetting  the F600 due at the end of the year, maybe Ford wants to see  how that
affects F650 sales,  it may also be the excuse that Ford needs to reorganize MD and its cabs.

If F600 is a success then perhaps Ford  looks at  reorganizing F650/F750 to just one, F700 model
and a class 8 variant. Yeah, I'm getting way ahead of things here.....

JP-no doubt that F-600 at 22,000 GVW will eat into a good  number of  650 sales.  I think the F-600 was a quick and easy way to come up with "something new" to counter GM/International's splash at the March Work Truck Show.  And it makes sense.  But to a lot of operators, you are giving away 4000 lbs of capacity that the same non CDL driver could be carrying.

Why is it that there is always the sentiment that Ford can't justify something when it comes to improving market share in class 6 and 7 but the guy that owns Autocar can justify a new conventional, the Diamond Reo guys are insistent on the fact they will be building a new class 8 conventional etc etc.  Yes- I understand Ford may have a sharper pencil when it comes to allocating development costs.  But in this age of CAD and other technologies, it is not 1960.  

I  have to believe in the grand scheme of things it is chicken feed.  In particular if Ford wants to maintain its claimed leadership in commercial trucks.

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If the F-600 takes enough sales from the F-650, could it lead to Ford dropping both the 650 and 750?  750 sales are negligible, if 650 sales drop 30% or so due to the F-600, what would Ford do?   

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1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

If the F-600 takes enough sales from the F-650, could it lead to Ford dropping both the 650 and 750?  750 sales are negligible, if 650 sales drop 30% or so due to the F-600, what would Ford do?   

Ford has already announced an update to the F-650 and 750. They are going nowhere. 

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1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

If the F-600 takes enough sales from the F-650, could it lead to Ford dropping both the 650 and 750?  750 sales are negligible, if 650 sales drop 30% or so due to the F-600, what would Ford do?   

Yes you are correct on that possibility.  But then again you have frequently posted that GM is not only going to be in class 7 but even 8.

Just curious-Ford can't do it-survive that is in 6 and 7, but GM can?  And Class 8 as well?

Given fact that I believe Ford has a stronger commercial dealer sales network, and GM for what ever reason kicked the GMC dealers to the curb-the same people that had the tag line..."The truck people from General Motors"-and forced the Chevrolet dealers to invest heavily I believe in the class 4,5,6 franchise, I can't see GM any better positioned than Ford.

But always appreciate your views on GM.

 

1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

 

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Well I may have posted pix of this LTL before, but for you true Ford guys on this site, you can use a "fix".

I call this shot..."Oldy pulling Oldies.  Friend of mine has three JD locations.  He bought this LTL from a customer of his that bought it new to haul silage.  In these shots, owner is loading up three of his old "pulling Deeres" .  And he will often use the LTL to transfer machines from one store to another rather than drive a car nor pick up for his visits.  His primary tandem low boy tractor is a W-900.  His view  is the only  edge the KW has is it has air ride and the Ford is old school Hendrickson-I believe extended leaf.  

Only down side?  Most of his 33,000 lb ramp trucks are Hino's. I've suggested why not 750's and his comment-extensive warranty and great Hino dealer who kisses his butt.

IMG_1091.JPG

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The question here is who buys F600 - is it...

1. Buyers that would otherwise opt for F550

2. Buyers that would otherwise opt for F650

3. Buyers that would otherwise opt for a competing product

If it is #1, then the higher cost to Ford probably pays for itself. If it is #2, then I think this will ultimately cripple the medium duty business for Ford. If it is #3, it is all gravy.

My guess if Ford's market research tells them they have an opportunity to up-sell F550 buyers and also make Chevy's MD launch more difficult - so a combination of #1 and #3. I don't think they would peruse this strategy if they believe their own MD business will be in jeopardy.

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48 minutes ago, bzcat said:

The question here is who buys F600 - is it...

1. Buyers that would otherwise opt for F550

2. Buyers that would otherwise opt for F650

3. Buyers that would otherwise opt for a competing product

If it is #1, then the higher cost to Ford probably pays for itself. If it is #2, then I think this will ultimately cripple the medium duty business for Ford. If it is #3, it is all gravy.

My guess if Ford's market research tells them they have an opportunity to up-sell F550 buyers and also make Chevy's MD launch more difficult - so a combination of #1 and #3. I don't think they would peruse this strategy if they believe their own MD business will be in jeopardy.

My guess is all three!..No.1  550-just not enough GVW at 19,500-=like a contractors equipment service truck.. Lot of guys buy 550's and by the time they outfit it with welder, air compressor, hydraulic crane, lube oil tanks and even small diesel tank, plus hand tools they are maxed out. Never mind adding repair parts

No. 2 Need the GVW that 650 can provide, but really want 4 WD and that is an aftermarket 650 solution-and can make 22,000 GVW work for them.  Or the physical "envelope" of the 650 cab height is a turn off And biggest reason, price-in particular if 22,000 lbs GVW works for them.

No 3. For sure..  Keeps the buyers who are Ford guys in the fold and from jumping to GM/Navistar in the 22,000lb class

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6 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

My guess is all three!..No.1  550-just not enough GVW at 19,500-=like a contractors equipment service truck.. Lot of guys buy 550's and by the time they outfit it with welder, air compressor, hydraulic crane, lube oil tanks and even small diesel tank, plus hand tools they are maxed out. Never mind adding repair parts

No. 2 Need the GVW that 650 can provide, but really want 4 WD and that is an aftermarket 650 solution-and can make 22,000 GVW work for them.  Or the physical "envelope" of the 650 cab height is a turn off And biggest reason, price-in particular if 22,000 lbs GVW works for them.

No 3. For sure..  Keeps the buyers who are Ford guys in the fold and from jumping to GM/Navistar in the 22,000lb class

Haven't thought about the 4WD angle but that's a good point. F600 will also continue to benefit from investment in Superduty which 650 lacks.

So #1 and #3 are all upsides for Ford with little downside. #2 is a bit ambiguous but certainly plausible for 600 and 650 to coexist as you mentioned. 

 

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3 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Yes you are correct on that possibility.  But then again you have frequently posted that GM is not only going to be in class 7 but even 8.

Just curious-Ford can't do it-survive that is in 6 and 7, but GM can?  And Class 8 as well?

Given fact that I believe Ford has a stronger commercial dealer sales network, and GM for what ever reason kicked the GMC dealers to the curb-the same people that had the tag line..."The truck people from General Motors"-and forced the Chevrolet dealers to invest heavily I believe in the class 4,5,6 franchise, I can't see GM any better positioned than Ford.

But always appreciate your views on GM.

 

 

Simply because GM has a partner firmly established in class 7/8 and Ford does not.  If GM did not have a partner, I think it wouldn't make sense for GM to go any larger than class 5.  That's the only reason. 

 

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2 hours ago, bzcat said:

The question here is who buys F600 - is it...

1. Buyers that would otherwise opt for F550

2. Buyers that would otherwise opt for F650

3. Buyers that would otherwise opt for a competing product

If it is #1, then the higher cost to Ford probably pays for itself. If it is #2, then I think this will ultimately cripple the medium duty business for Ford. If it is #3, it is all gravy.

My guess if Ford's market research tells them they have an opportunity to up-sell F550 buyers and also make Chevy's MD launch more difficult - so a combination of #1 and #3. I don't think they would peruse this strategy if they believe their own MD business will be in jeopardy.

I think that reasoning is sound,
Ford is doing several things at the one time in Super Duty and Medium Duty Trucks,
it is introducing the gas 7.3 V8 across the board and introducing the F600 as well
and the idea that Ford is racing to out flank  GM in MD has a lot of merit. Just what
effect the GM-Navistar tie up has on class 6, 7 and 8  will be interesting to see.

Ford appears to be both responding to buyer requests for a big gasoline engine and
probing the market with the F600, asking buyers to tell them which trucks they actually
prefer - gas F550, F600, F650 and does a gas 7.3 F750 now make sense and attract buyers?

 

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11 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

F-600 begs the question whether Ford will try other "Tweeners" as well.

This is possible and I wonder if it signals a potential F700 with a class 8 variant add on like  F750 has now..
I think buyers will ultimately decide this for Ford, an F700 might be a nonsene play for Ford if it falls outside

the GVM and GCW expected for a truck in this arena  - I'll defer to Bob's and other trucker's experience in this area.

(could F600 and F700 be a nice quirky niche trucks that suits Ford's offerings?)

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12 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

F-600 begs the question whether Ford will try other "Tweeners" as well.

 

One would think something with either an E-Series or Transit cab. Only question regarding Transit is width of cab. We know Econoline is wide enough, but could Transit's cab structure be made to sit on a modified floor pan that would mate to the medium duty chassis.

  

Imagine something like this with a tilt forward nose for access...

Image result for transit cab

Edited by twintornados

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15 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Simply because GM has a partner firmly established in class 7/8 and Ford does not.  If GM did not have a partner, I think it wouldn't make sense for GM to go any larger than class 5.  That's the only reason. 

 

I would agree a "partner" could be a rationale, but I would say Navistar would ultimately come out on the short end of  that stick.  I  think the current arrangement benefits Navistar the most.  Your employer is a good example-they can now deal with one supplier who supplies class 4-8.  Now  you  would quickly make  the case that if Chevrolet went to class 7 and 8, it would be back to the old days when Ford, GM, Dodge and International did that, just don't see the economics work.  Unless as with any product, if "private labeling" lets you make use of your underutilized capacity, it can be beneficial. 

As for all of the partnering going on because the school of  thought is "no one can survive the huge development costs on their own" I don't think  that would apply here- we are talking about duplicating or badge sharing I think.   And two parties would have to split the resultant margins.

 

Or so  it would seem to me.

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7 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I would agree a "partner" could be a rationale, but I would say Navistar would ultimately come out on the short end of  that stick.  I  think the current arrangement benefits Navistar the most.  Your employer is a good example-they can now deal with one supplier who supplies class 4-8.  Now  you  would quickly make  the case that if Chevrolet went to class 7 and 8, it would be back to the old days when Ford, GM, Dodge and International did that, just don't see the economics work.  Unless as with any product, if "private labeling" lets you make use of your underutilized capacity, it can be beneficial. 

As for all of the partnering going on because the school of  thought is "no one can survive the huge development costs on their own" I don't think  that would apply here- we are talking about duplicating or badge sharing I think.   And two parties would have to split the resultant margins.

 

Or so  it would seem to me.

 

I have to agree that Navistar is definitely has the most to gain in the relationship.  Their first attempt at class 4-5 failed with the Terrastar, and they are getting access to the GM Parts bin that will eventually give them a gasoline engine option they did not have before.  My biggest question is what engine is GM going to use in the new medium duty line when they do offer a gas engine to compete with the new 7.3 gasser?

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1 hour ago, hwyman3 said:

 

I have to agree that Navistar is definitely has the most to gain in the relationship.  Their first attempt at class 4-5 failed with the Terrastar, and they are getting access to the GM Parts bin that will eventually give them a gasoline engine option they did not have before.  My biggest question is what engine is GM going to use in the new medium duty line when they do offer a gas engine to compete with the new 7.3 gasser?

I think Navistar is already using the PSI 8.8 liter gasoline/ propane  engine in busese I think..........

http://investors.psiengines.com/news-releases/news-release-details/navistar-power-solutions-international-launch-gasoline-fueled-ic

https://imt-technologie.de/file/2016/03/PSI 8.8L-INDUSTRIAL.pdf

 

big_psi-8_8l-na-engine-power-curves-char

 

PSI-8.8L-Engine.jpg&f=1

Edited by jpd80

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16 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

 

I just looked it up and, yes, the PSI is available in the ICBus.

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6 minutes ago, hwyman3 said:

 

I just looked it up and, yes, the PSI is available in the ICBus.

I do recall some on GM websites claimng that GM MD trucks would share with Navistar and that the 8.8 V8 would be part of that. Perhaps GM offers Navistar its  class 3/4 HDs   and in return gets access to Navistar's Class 7/8 trucks and engines..

 

GM and Navistar supply each other trucks at agreed prices with little or no up front development costs

Edited by jpd80

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My sources tell me that the medium duty Silverado and the International CV will both get a recalibrated version of the new 6.6L V-8 mid-2020.  The engine will likely be offered with various 6 speed Allison transmissions, and will have somewhat lower ratings than 6.6L's in the GM HD pickups.  International does indeed use gasoline, CNG, and LNG versions of the PSI 8.8L in their IC school buses.  There were rumors that the PSI 8.8L would eventually be offered in International DuraStar medium duty trucks, but it looks as though those plans have changed.  There is rumored to be a new 8L+ gasoline/CNG/LNG V-8 engine under development that GM (Chevy) and International will share in an upcoming class 6/7 truck they are jointly developing.    

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Very interesting 7Mary3, a provocative move indeed and if  that 8 liter engine has a similar torque curve

to the 8.8 liter engine, it will be a nice low revving engine perfect for MD work without the up front cost of a diesel.

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On 8/20/2019 at 8:15 AM, jpd80 said:

This is possible and I wonder if it signals a potential F700 with a class 8 variant add on like  F750 has now..
I think buyers will ultimately decide this for Ford, an F700 might be a nonsene play for Ford if it falls outside

the GVM and GCW expected for a truck in this arena  - I'll defer to Bob's and other trucker's experience in this area.

(could F600 and F700 be a nice quirky niche trucks that suits Ford's offerings?)

My guess as a practical matter that the 22,000 lb F-600 would be the practical limit of the 350-550 derived chassis.  Not to say you couldn't put an I beam/leqf spring front end under it but why would you.

Now in the old days the F-700-800 competed with the LN-700-800.  Same GVW offerings and virtually same power train combos-difference? "pick up cab --work for you?,  save your money and buy the F-want a "big truck" with more room, much better visibility?,  buy the Louisville"

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On 8/20/2019 at 9:19 PM, jpd80 said:

Very interesting 7Mary3, a provocative move indeed and if  that 8 liter engine has a similar torque curve

to the 8.8 liter engine, it will be a nice low revving engine perfect for MD work without the up front cost of a diesel.

And speaking of Torque curves, looking at the PSI motor, the torque curve is relatively flat.  Much like the new 7.3.

 

If my memory is right, all the old school gas truck V-8's had big torque numbers at low RPM's and then torque dropped off quickly.  What accounts for these flat torque curves today?  Carburetors vs FI?? VVT?

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39 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

And speaking of Torque curves, looking at the PSI motor, the torque curve is relatively flat.  Much like the new 7.3.

 

If my memory is right, all the old school gas truck V-8's had big torque numbers at low RPM's and then torque dropped off quickly.  What accounts for these flat torque curves today?  Carburetors vs FI?? VVT?

Yes, all of those, plus more advanced modeling to improve flow and combustion. And computers, can program fuel delivery scheme to flatten out the torque curve.

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48 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

And speaking of Torque curves, looking at the PSI motor, the torque curve is relatively flat.  Much like the new 7.3.

 

If my memory is right, all the old school gas truck V-8's had big torque numbers at low RPM's and then torque dropped off quickly.  What accounts for these flat torque curves today?  Carburetors vs FI?? VVT?

A wholistic approach where everything is designed to

work together to maximise efficiency in a given rev range.

The big difference I see between the PSI 8.8 and Ford’s 7.3

is the rev range. The 8.8 is 1,000 to 2,600, the 7.3 is 2,000 to 4,500.

The slower the air pump, the more durable it is with perhaps less

heat build up in parts and cooling system thanks to freer flow.

 

having said that,

there’s a lot to like about the new Ford 7.3 and the GM6.6,

i think both will be very honest performers, I just wish that

GM had completed the job with a 10-speed auto......

Edited by jpd80

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