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Joe771476

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2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Did they even build any?  When it was introduced, Ford made a concerted effort to sell the 6.7L Powerstroke to other OEM's.  As far as I know, the only takers were Pierce and a proposed HMMWV replacement that was not accepted.  With the number of current Ford trucks using the 6.7L and the supply problems of late I figure Ford is probably reluctant to sell Powerstroke to anyone else now anyway.  However, one thing that's been in the back of my mind is the possibility of selling the 7.3L gas to other OEM's.  GM has been very successful selling their 6.0L gas to Isuzu, Freightliner, and Mitsubishi, maybe Ford should look into customers for the 7.3L.  

I too went on the Pierce website looking for the 6.7-didn't it have a specific name ?   "Saber"?  but I did not spend that much time.  I looked at "commercial chassis by brand and only Fords were 450/550 rescues/mini pumpers- I'm surprised they haven't offered 650/750 crew cabs as I think there would  be a market for them-given cost of the typical 1500 GPM pumper today.  As for the 7.3, I  would hope they keep it completely in house.  I know I'm a broken record but I  think the 7.3 will  soon b e selling a lot of 650/750's-in particular when air brakes become an option.  It will be the only game in town until GM/Navistar get their act together

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On 7/13/2020 at 9:40 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

I too went on the Pierce website looking for the 6.7-didn't it have a specific name ?   "Saber"?  but I did not spend that much time.  I looked at "commercial chassis by brand and only Fords were 450/550 rescues/mini pumpers- I'm surprised they haven't offered 650/750 crew cabs as I think there would  be a market for them-given cost of the typical 1500 GPM pumper today.  As for the 7.3, I  would hope they keep it completely in house.  I know I'm a broken record but I  think the 7.3 will  soon b e selling a lot of 650/750's-in particular when air brakes become an option.  It will be the only game in town until GM/Navistar get their act together

 

Yes is was the Pierce Saber chassis the 6.7 was offered.  I know a couple were built, but I don't think they sold many.  

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33 minutes ago, hwyman3 said:

 

Yes is was the Pierce Saber chassis the 6.7 was offered.  I know a couple were built, but I don't think they sold many.  

Thx for the confirmation.

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20 hours ago, hwyman3 said:

 

Yes is was the Pierce Saber chassis the 6.7 was offered.  I know a couple were built, but I don't think they sold many.  

 

I didn't think it was going to go over big.  Not that the Ford powertrain couldn't handle it, but with custom apparatus being so expensive how much more does a Sabre with a 9L Cummins/Allison 3000 cost?   Commercial pumpers are pretty much obsolete except for export or industrial use.  From what I understand, you can't build them to comply with NFPA standards these days. 

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Commercial CONVENTIONAL cab pumpers are still being built in abundance. The NFPA standards were written by the apparatus mfrs. because they couldn't sell their outrageously priced custom cab/chassis while the Ford C-series was still killing them!  They weren't happy with just selling the body, they wanted the cab/chassis part too!  There's no way a pumper/ladder should cost $500,000/$1,000,000!  I don't care if it's made of aluminum, stainless steel, diamond plate or gold!  Yeah I know there's a lot of electronics and hydraulics -- oil in outriggers and ladder elevation and water.  The reason why the price is so high is they don't sell that many of them.  A mfr. can't keep hundreds of workers and plants going selling just 50 to 100 units a year for just $100,000, which is what the price SHOULD be!  So they quintuple it!  And the NFPA standards don't help either.  By the way, this new way of economics is why highway construction bids are so high now. They're afraid they're not going to get the go ahead/approval from the DOT/legislature, so they triple the bid price hoping they get lucky and make up for the bids they did NOT get approved!  They didn't get approved because your bids were too high!!  But what came first, the chicken or the egg?!  If their bids were reasonable, they would have been approved and you wouldn't have to pad future ones!  Here in CT, they approved and built a bus-only 10 mile stretch that cost $500,000,000!!!!  It was originally called the Busway, but Dannel Malloy was the governor and if they named it the Dannel Malloy Busway, it would have been DuMB!!!!!!  So they named it CTFastrak.......a fast track to state bankruptcy!  I think Ford should rework a new updated C-series cab/chassis with some retro styling, wider cab, high roof, 4 doors and their own diesel and maybe even acquire an apparatus mfr.to make the body to put on it!!  A dream?  Maybe!

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 Forgot to mention I saw an Avon Lake F-series medium duty UPS truck.  So you know if they bought one, they must have bought at least a thousand!  Hopefully more! But of course all the markings are gone, so I couldn't tell if it was a 650 or 750 or what diesel.  It was sitting real high so I'll bet it's a 750, especially being a parcel truck.  I got a postal friend who's going to ask a UPS driver if he can find out what the diesel engine is.

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6 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

 Forgot to mention I saw an Avon Lake F-series medium duty UPS truck.  So you know if they bought one, they must have bought at least a thousand!  Hopefully more! But of course all the markings are gone, so I couldn't tell if it was a 650 or 750 or what diesel.  It was sitting real high so I'll bet it's a 750, especially being a parcel truck.  I got a postal friend who's going to ask a UPS driver if he can find out what the diesel engine is.

 

I've seen quite a few of the Mediums in UPS clothes.

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20 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

I've seen quite a few of the Mediums in UPS clothes.

They had  Avon Lake Fords for  quite  a while now.  I've asked for comments from any Avon Lake employees for any info (gas/diesel?, 650/750? How many in the order?)  but never any responses- guess not many BON readers at Avon Lake😟

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19 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

I didn't think it was going to go over big.  Not that the Ford powertrain couldn't handle it, but with custom apparatus being so expensive how much more does a Sabre with a 9L Cummins/Allison 3000 cost?   Commercial pumpers are pretty much obsolete except for export or industrial use.  From what I understand, you can't build them to comply with NFPA standards these days. 

 

Sabre is a more moderately priced chassis in the Pierce lineup, and I use moderate loosely.  As was previously stated, NFPA basically killed commercial chassis fire apparatus, with the exception of Takers and Rescues.  Even the Rescues are moving towards custom chassis.  Used to be common to see a Pete with a big rescue box on the back, now they are almost all customs, at least around here.  Also, Spartan Motors recently sold it's Emergency Vehicle line to REV Group, which owns a few fire apparatus and sever ambulance manufacturers.  I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing more custom chassis Ambulances after that move.

 

I saw someone post about a reworked C-Series from Ford.  Did Ford keep the rights to the C-Series in the sale to Freightliner?  To be honest, I'm not sure how well Ford could compete with the current crop of apparatus manufacturers.  Pierce is owned by Oshkosh, E-One, KME, Ferrera and now Spartan are owned by REV Group.  Seagrave is still around, but I'm not sure Ford could afford them.  That's pretty much the major players anymore.  Similar to Ford getting back into the bus business, about the only one left for them is Blue Bird.  Again, not sure if that would be the best move for them.

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Any news or rumors on the 650/750 update?

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On 7/29/2020 at 8:55 PM, 7Mary3 said:

Any news or rumors on the 650/750 update?

No clue but I was on a job site Friday and a contractor was working on UG utility connections in street.  All the service trucks  were Fords and they also had two 650 dumps-a Bluediamond and an OAP with a Powerstroke.  I asked one of guys the usual.."so how is that new Ford"?  Quick answer was.." great- unbelieveable power".  Had a 6-7 yd box and set up to tow.  As I've posted before when some suggest the 600 will kill the 650/750, this job is where a 650/750 shines.   Typical utility work- excavate-uncover,  bring in bedding material, place new line, bring in clean spec backfill.  And tight quarters with frequent truck moves.

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Well as everyone focuses on the new change at the top, one thing that most of the related articles on Farley do in fact cover is....

 

And Farley put greater focus on Ford's commercial vehicles business, an emphasis he repeated Tuesday."

 

The key question then becomes what is Farley's vision of "commercial business".  Does that mean Transit on down or does it encompass a much broader customer base and need???

 

Some have mentioned a new generation in class 6 and  7 is due.  That will be telling if  it materializes.  And It is  worth noting, that class 6 and 7 was once the province of the low cost producers such as Ford and GM.  But today with F'liner and Paccar doing very well in those classes, that says low initial cost is not the only measure of success.  And Volvo, through its Mack brand is now making a push to gain a piece of the 6 and  7 market.

 

Time will tell.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Well as everyone focuses on the new change at the top, one thing that most of the related articles on Farley do in fact cover is....

 

And Farley put greater focus on Ford's commercial vehicles business, an emphasis he repeated Tuesday."

 

The key question then becomes what is Farley's vision of "commercial business".  Does that mean Transit on down or does it encompass a much broader customer base and need???

 

Some have mentioned a new generation in class 6 and  7 is due.  That will be telling if  it materializes.  And It is  worth noting, that class 6 and 7 was once the province of the low cost producers such as Ford and GM.  But today with F'liner and Paccar doing very well in those classes, that says low initial cost is not the only measure of success.  And Volvo, through its Mack brand is now making a push to gain a piece of the 6 and  7 market.

 

Time will tell.

 

That new class 6-7 Mack is a joke.  I don't see that ending well at all.  Very narrow/small cab and most Mack/Volvo dealers already have Hino franchises so they are just going to cannabalize each other.  

 

If Ford wants to compete better with the class 6-7 market they need a better cab.  It's so small/tight and cheap feeling when comparing it to Freightliner and even International.  (Who both sell more than the PACCAR twins.)   Plus, not having an Allison transmission anymore is a big issue for Ford, and they need to come out with a better, more modern engines that can hang with new entrants like the DD5/DD8.  Those two Detroit engines, for the same price as Cummins, will last twice as long (with 45-55K oil change intervals!) and run WAY better.  Freightliner dealers have slowly started to back away from Cummins as those DD twins are performing way better.  

https://freightlineradsaem.azureedge.net/content/dam/enterprise/documents/3846-detroit_mid-range_engines_broc-2020-02-07.pdf

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2 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

My comments were directed at Farley's repeated references in just about every interview he has given as to the importance to Ford of "commercial vehicles".  As I said, time will tell.  Hopefully he is talking about classes above 5.

 

As to your comments, no argument on the need for an Allison.  And no question on the need for an inline diesel. Has the 6.7 PowerStroke overcome the bad experiences many had with the 6.0/6.4?  I think so.  How many thousands are in service in 450/550?  But I agree-some guys have no use for a V-8.  I do think the 7.3 gas will be a home run in class 6 and 7.

Regarding the "small" cab?  I guess it works in 450/550 but is it as roomy as a FL  or International MV or the Paccar twins?  No.  

The new Mack medium cab is too small?  No clue-haven't seen one never mind driven one.  Did buy my share of CH's though and the cab looks like its pretty much a CH cab. Your comment on most of the Mack dealers also selling Hino?  No argument.  I think the few Mack marketers left on the payroll hope the old guys like me will continue to support the brand.  Unfortunately too many of us "old guys" are retired😎

 

But back to Farley-again, time will tell.  

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe part of his grandfather worked on Ford Trucks specifically for a large part of his career, no?

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1 hour ago, ausrutherford said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe part of his grandfather worked on Ford Trucks specifically for a large part of his career, no?

I know for sure he started in the Rouge in 1913!  That's history. And I think in the book "Once upon a Car"  the author tells the story of how Farley when he was being courted by Ford, thought of his grandfathers life and experience, and I do believe that was a significant factor in his decision to jump ship and join Ford.

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On 8/5/2020 at 10:06 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

And Farley put greater focus on Ford's commercial vehicles business, an emphasis he repeated Tuesday."

 

 

If Ford wants to get serious about the "commercial vehicle business", maybe it is time to do a "real" commercial diesel, an I6 !  The only issue is, it has to fit in the E-Series.  

 

Wouldn't that shake up the industry !

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2 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

 

If Ford wants to get serious about the "commercial vehicle business", maybe it is time to do a "real" commercial diesel, an I6 !  The only issue is, it has to fit in the E-Series.  

 

Wouldn't that shake up the industry !

For sure.  Like I said-some guys have no use for a V-8 diesel.  As many on this site have questioned-what would it take to bring the 9L Duratorque over from Otosan?  Or perhaps build off of its design?  As for the E-Series, a consideration for sure  but as Transit gains  a following I would have to think the E will end up very low on the priority list.  And given the success of the 7.3 I would have to believe that will displace a lot  of potential diesel sales-in particular given the likely premium for a diesel option.

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Posted (edited)

They need to invest in a new medium duty chassis to make investment in I6 make sense. Don't think I6 can fit in the E-series and if you have to spend money to make it fit, you might as well look at a modern clean sheet design. 

 

Right now, E-series + F650/750 + stripped chassis doesn't add up enough volume for Ford to make a clean sheet new chassis design so I don't see any new engine investment happening. 

 

The big question is electrification. Ford hasn't really tipped its hand about how they will address this issue from both regulatory and demand standpoint. The answer can't be putting batteries in the ancient E-series. 

Edited by bzcat

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14 minutes ago, bzcat said:

They need to invest in a new medium duty chassis to make investment in I6 make sense. Don't think I6 can fit in the E-series and if you have to spend money to make it fit, you might as well look at a modern clean sheet design. 

 

Right now, E-series + F650/750 + stripped chassis doesn't add up enough volume for Ford to make a clean sheet new chassis design so I don't see any new engine investment happening. 

 

The big question is electrification. Ford hasn't really tipped its hand about how they will address this issue from both regulatory and demand standpoint. The answer can't be putting batteries in the ancient E-series. 

 

In 1982, my dad bought a new E150 for a shop van and it had an 300 I-6 in it, when we replaced it in 1990, we got another E150, again with a 300 I-6....E-Series is a good solid chassis that can serve well into the future for medium duty lines that need a short nose.

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2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

For sure.  Like I said-some guys have no use for a V-8 diesel.  As many on this site have questioned-what would it take to bring the 9L Duratorque over from Otosan?  Or perhaps build off of its design?  As for the E-Series, a consideration for sure  but as Transit gains  a following I would have to think the E will end up very low on the priority list.  And given the success of the 7.3 I would have to believe that will displace a lot  of potential diesel sales-in particular given the likely premium for a diesel option.

 

I am rapidly getting to the point that I have no use for diesel, period!

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3 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

In 1982, my dad bought a new E150 for a shop van and it had an 300 I-6 in it, when we replaced it in 1990, we got another E150, again with a 300 I-6....E-Series is a good solid chassis that can serve well into the future for medium duty lines that need a short nose.

 

The 4.9 I6 was gas engine mated to a relatively short 4 speed auto. We are talking about a modern I6 turbo diesel and modern auto (even the 6 speed used in E-series seems outdated). Plus all the emission equipment required. I think it will take a pretty substantial surgery of the entire front half of the frame to make it work. My point was that if you are going thru all the trouble, you might as well design a whole new chassis that works with all the current and future drivetrains including EV and PHEV applications. 

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6 hours ago, bzcat said:

The big question is electrification. Ford hasn't really tipped its hand about how they will address this issue from both regulatory and demand standpoint. The answer can't be putting batteries in the ancient E-series. 

 

GM's upcoming Hummer BEV truck and SUV platform will spawn commercial vehicles.  Rumor is something for UPS/FedEx/Amazon for one.  And perhaps some military BEV's as well. 

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6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

I am rapidly getting to the point that I have no use for diesel, period!

Like I said..... And given the success of the 7.3 I would have to believe that motor will displace a lot  of potential diesel sales-in particular given the likely premium for a diesel option.

 

As to your point, is that opinion based on your personal experience  or your experience at work?  As many of us have said, unless you run the miles or consistently need a "torque monster" because of your typical load factor, tough to justify the up front premium as well as the routine maintenance cost.

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Like I said..... And given the success of the 7.3 I would have to believe that motor will displace a lot  of potential diesel sales-in particular given the likely premium for a diesel option.

 

As to your point, is that opinion based on your personal experience  or your experience at work?  As many of us have said, unless you run the miles or consistently need a "torque monster" because of your typical load factor, tough to justify the up front premium as well as the routine maintenance cost.

 

 

Mainly work.  Over the past 4 years, we have been phasing out our class 6 and 7 diesels, replacing them with CNG powered units.  The Freightliners we buy have the Cummins ISL-G.  Drivers love them, quiet, no vibration, plenty of power.  Mechanics love them, MUCH less maintenance and repair compared to diesels.  

Edited by 7Mary3

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