lfeg Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 The 8.8 is an engine developed off of the old big block Chevy. It was a popular and durable engine in medium duty service. The PSI 8.8 V8 has good torque and horsepower curves that are very well suited to school bus service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Probably some basis to their claims. Their 8.8L operates at a much lower r.p.m. than the V-10 does. The 8.8 is an engine developed off of the old big block Chevy. It was a popular and durable engine in medium duty service. The PSI 8.8 V8 has good torque and horsepower curves that are very well suited to school bus service. . Ahh yes....back to the pushrods.....the 6.8L Triton is still a quantum leap ahead of the PSI 8.8L in terms of performance and reliable service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Propane is a "reasonable" fuel for large fleets that have space for their own storage and pumping. By negotiating big contracts they can purchase the fuel at a very good price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 . Ahh yes....back to the pushrods.....the 6.8L Triton is still a quantum leap ahead of the PSI 8.8L in terms of performance and reliable service. The 6.8L on propane does make more horsepower than the 8.8L, but at a much higher operating r.p.m.. The 8.8L however delivers 565 ft. lbs. of torque (100 more than the V-10) at a diesel-like 1500 r.p.m.. I would agree with IC Bus's claim that the 8.8L is well suited for school bus applications. I can't see the V-10 being a 'quantum leap' over the 8.8L in regards to performance. As for more reliable service, what information do you have to support that? Always interested in statistics. http://www.icbus.com/bus/articles/power-propane http://www.roushcleantech.com/blue-bird-vision/#benefit-down I am starting to see a number of propane fueled school buses in my area. Some Blubirds, but most seem to be the Thomas Saf-T-Liner, which uses an 8.0L V-8 by CleanFUEL. The 8.0L is also Big Block Chevy derived, but it is based on the older Mark VI 7.4L version. It's output and performance curves are closer to the Roush V-10. http://www.thomasbus.com/bus-models/green-buses/saf-t-liner-c2-propane.asp#features Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwyman3 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Well I answered my own questions. I was sure Daimler owned IC-went to their website and looks like they are a big partner of Navistar in the school bus business. Did not check their corporate structure but given the Navistar relationship I'm sure its not Daimler- is it Thomas that is a Daimler co? How about it Joe'76??-you are a student of the school bus business. And for sure I thought when GM spun off Allison it became a Daimler co. Went to their website and it looks like they are a stand alone publicly traded company. And with a ton of former GM people at the top. IC is the old Ward Bus. International (Navistar) bought it around the same time Daimler bought Thomas Built Buses. At least around here, most of our school buses were International/Thomas combinations. With Daimler buying Thomas, that would rule out International chassis under anymore Thomas, so International got Ward. I believe Ward was in bankruptcy at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 IC is the old Ward Bus. International (Navistar) bought it around the same time Daimler bought Thomas Built Buses. At least around here, most of our school buses were International/Thomas combinations. With Daimler buying Thomas, that would rule out International chassis under anymore Thomas, so International got Ward. I believe Ward was in bankruptcy at the time. Thx for the education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Friend who is involved in heavy trucks on a world wide scene told me to check out this link. Forget the language issue but if Ford Turkey is charged with Ford heavy truck engineering on a world scene, the visual gives you an idea of their capabilities. Hit this on You Tube. Ford Trucks 1846 T'nin Dogusu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Hatter Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Friend who is involved in heavy trucks on a world wide scene told me to check out this link. Forget the language issue but if Ford Turkey is charged with Ford heavy truck engineering on a world scene, the visual gives you an idea of their capabilities. Hit this on You Tube. Ford Trucks 1846 T'nin Dogusu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm2S1KUGZgw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm2S1KUGZgw Thx for IT support! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Have to think if Ford is giving all the design responsibility for heavy trucks to their Turkish joint venture, they have no intention of reentering the North American heavy truck market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Have to think if Ford is giving all the design responsibility for heavy trucks to their Turkish joint venture, they have no intention of reentering the North American heavy truck market. I guess I would have to agree with you if there was no input from Dearborn as to WHAT they were designing. Looking at it from a positive perspective, If Ford thinks they have the engineering talent that merits the designation as the group responsible for world wide heavy truck engineering, its a matter of feeding this group the proper design parameters that form their objective. And in any case, regardless of who it may be-Ford, Scania, Man, Iveco, Volvo etc- if we (USA) think we have it tough in terms of operating conditions, think of the world these trucks operate in- lousy roads, drivers of perhaps lesser skill and motivation, sparse maintenance facilities, inconsistent fuel and lubes etc etc. I have to believe at the very least from a durability perspective they have to match our capabilities. Again, an opinion- never been there but I can only imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 HDT has published industry sales stats for May. Key points Class 3-4-5 Dodge continues to lead at 43.52% with Ford remaining firmly in second at 34.32% Slight gain for Dodge over 4 mos YTD and very slight drop for Ford. No one else even close to these two. Class 6 % 5mos/4 mos. Ford 33.99/34.26, F'liner 29.25/29.61, Nav 23.2/22.71, Hino 10.53/10.42, KW 2.768/2.72, Pete 0.25/0.29 Slight losers, Ford, F-liner, slight gainers Nav, Hino, KW Class 7 %5mos/4mos . F'liner 50.84/50.5, Nav 21.56/21.62 Pete 10.02/10.09, KW 7.92/7.35 Ford 6.44/7.07, Hino 3.22 /3.38 Biggest losers Ford, 73 pts, KW 57 pts. Hino 16 pts. biggest gainer F'liner 34 pts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 HDT has published industry sales stats for May. Key points Class 3-4-5 Dodge continues to lead at 43.52% with Ford remaining firmly in second at 34.32% Slight gain for Dodge over 4 mos YTD and very slight drop for Ford. No one else even close to these two. It sounds like the bigger truck sales (6,7,8) are slowing down but I wonder if Dord's SD sales are simply running flatter because buyers are holding off for the new lighter models out soon. Interesting that GM is nowhere in site, does that mean most of Silverado sales are actually 1500 and 2500? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 It sounds like the bigger truck sales (6,7,8) are slowing down but I wonder if Dord's SD sales are simply running flatter because buyers are holding off for the new lighter models out soon. Interesting that GM is nowhere in site, does that mean most of Silverado sales are actually 1500 and 2500? Silverado never had class 4 or 5 versions. 1500, 2500, and 3500 only. So that's why GM is minor player in Class 3-5... they only have class 3 pickup (GM does have class 4 Express cab chassis but it's not a good seller vs. E-450) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 It sounds like the bigger truck sales (6,7,8) are slowing down but I wonder if Dord's SD sales are simply running flatter because buyers are holding off for the new lighter models out soon. Interesting that GM is nowhere in site, does that mean most of Silverado sales are actually 1500 and 2500? It sounds like the bigger truck sales (6,7,8) are slowing down but I wonder if Dord's SD sales are simply running flatter because buyers are holding off for the new lighter models out soon. Interesting that GM is nowhere in site, does that mean most of Silverado sales are actually 1500 and 2500? Bzcat addressed your question-but that will soon change when the Isuzu's rebadged as Chevy start showing up at dealers in class 4 and 5. Plus it will really change in a year or so when the Navistar/GM class 4 -5' s show up. Ford and Dodge will for sure see diminished sales. On another note I went back to the the May 2014 stats and guess what-things are not as great as I thought with respect to the "new" mediums with respect to market share- First no. 5 mos 2014 second no. 5 mos 2016 Class 6 Ford 32.35/33.99, Class 7 Ford 8.21/6.44 As previously stated,I think the lack of a Cummins/Allison combo is/will hurt class 7 sales-or perhaps I should say, the lack of a 6 cylinder diesel as an alternative to the V-8 Power Stroke is hurting class 7 Class 3-4-5 Ford 35.07/34.32, Dodge 44.39/43.52 Ford loses 75 pts and Dodge loses 87 pts- but still almost a full 10% ahead. Hopefully Ford is working on an alternative to a 400 HP/900 lb.ft. V-8 that is NOT needed or wanted by everyone in these weight classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Ford's slight drop in class 7 from 2014 is not a surprise, neither the former Blue Diamond or the current product was/is much of a contender compared to the competition. Nonetheless it makes sense for Ford to offer a class 7 truck because doing so is not a great expense. Not promising statistics for a Ford return to class 8. Class 6 is a different story, Ford is a contender because their product is more acceptable to the class 6 market, and as the low cost producer they should enjoy strong sales. Somewhat of a surprise that Ford's market share in class 6/7 is a little bit less than it was in 2014. GM/Navistar will be a factor. My guess is that Ford will still have a price advantage, but Navistar's dealer network is strong and their dealers have been waiting for a competitive class 4/5 truck. Not to mention a bunch of Chevy dealers rediscovering commercial truck sales. I think they will both be aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) Interesting info on the 2017 Super Duty"Consumer" versions come with "improved" 6.2L gas or 6.4L diesel (diesel is the only engine available on the consumer F450)"Commercial" versions come with the 6.8L V10 (gaseous prep standard) or the 6.4L diesel (de-rated). They also claim the cab is identical to the F150 !! Edited August 2, 2016 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Somewhat of a surprise that Ford's market share in class 6/7 is a little bit less than it was in 2014. Given that they're rolling out a new-to-Class 6/7 diesel powertrain, and the overall low volumes in the segment, I'm not really surprised. They switched to a more profitable package without a significant loss of share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Traveling along I-40 today. I saw close to ten 26' U-Haul trucks. All but 2 were the new Ford. Also noticed OK had a couple working road crews. I recall seeing at least 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 All those Budget Ford medium rentals are F750's, not 650 like I thought at first. Ford needs to get into class 8 NOW before GM and/or FCA/Ram does. There's only room for one more Class 8 player. Anymore than that and there won't be enough volume for each player to survive, at least in the USA. Globally? That might be different. Yeah Daimler/Mercedes Benz might be the exception, but if Ford got into Class 8 here in the USA, Daimler would take a huge hit, just like their Sprinter did when the Transit came out! Gee, that was too bad, huh? The problem Ford will have will be trust! When GM got out, there weren't many tears. With no exaggeration, there's a ton of customers out there that were devastated when Ford exited Class 8! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Haven't been on as much Bob, but Hgwyman nailed it. I think International has had the IC division for quite awhile, Daimler/Freightliner buying another bus company (Thomas) was inevitible. That's why I wish Ford would have more of an involvement with Blue Bird. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 ............With no exaggeration, there's a ton of customers out there that were devastated when Ford exited Class 8! Not really. When Ford sold out to Freightliner, all of the former Ford heavy trucks, along with the medium duty Cargo cabovers, were continued under the Sterling brand. Most of the Ford heavy truck dealers became Sterling dealers, so the transition was nearly seamless to Ford's heavy truck customers. Shortly after Freightliner created Sterling, they added Mercedes engine options to the HN80 line and introduced the Acteera medium line. Freightliner did downplay over-the-road models of the HN80 and pushed Sterling as a vocational and regional-haul truck builder, but as I remember there was a wider variety of Sterlings that there was of Ford HN80's. Quality of the Sterling trucks was supposed to be better than the Ford HN80's, but I can't say as we never bought any. Neither truck had a great reputation however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Ford needs to get into class 8 NOW before GM and/or FCA/Ram does. I just don't see it happening ! It would be a HUGE investment and with no in-house powertrains, the profit margin would not be that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 I just don't see it happening ! It would be a HUGE investment and with no in-house powertrains, the profit margin would not be that good. For Ford and GM. FCA too now that Exor has spun off Iveco and CNH. I don't think Ford has anything to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted August 3, 2016 Author Share Posted August 3, 2016 I just saw a new Penske F650 rental. I wonder how many units that sale amounted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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