New Light & Medium Duty News

[Sevensecondsuv]

2016 e series was V10 only per Ford's website

 

It's also interesting that Ford put the 6.2 and not the 3.5eb in the e series. More proof that Ford has no plans to use the 3.5eb on HD apps in excess of transit.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Sevensecondsuv

[Sevensecondsuv]

I think Ford will develop the 'Boss' into an engine suitable for heavier applications. Having seen the insides of both engines, I can tell you for what it's worth the current 6.2L's internals look quite robust, while the V-10's (and any other Triton) look like economy car parts. I think that Ford will likely resolve whatever cooling (?) issues the 6.2L has in high GVW applications and replace the V-10 with it. Seems to be that was the original plan!

Well the modulars clearly have enough beef in the right places - the V10 has quite an impressive service record in HD/industrial apps.

 

That said, there's nothing wrong with the 6.2 either. It just needs to be stroked to move the powerband down about 1000 rpm before it'd be a true replacement for the V10. I'd also be thrilled to see the V10 get the 5.0 treatment. Either way it'll be interesting to see what Ford comes up with. I just hope it's available as an option in the pickups!

Edited February 24, 2017 by Sevensecondsuv

[theoldwizard]

I think Ford will develop the 'Boss' into an engine suitable for heavier applications. Having seen the insides of both engines, I can tell you for what it's worth the current 6.2L's internals look quite robust, while the V-10's (and any other Triton) look like economy car parts. I think that Ford will likely resolve whatever cooling (?) issues the 6.2L has in high GVW applications and replace the V-10 with it. Seems to be that was the original plan!

Logical conclusion, but can they make it large enough (>8L) for a F750 ? Likely, they can NOT raise the deck height.

 

I would also expect some serious rework on the head. 3V ?

 

 

The other "wild and crazy" idea would be to add an electric turbocharger to the V!0 ! Electric to spin the turbo up at low speed and then exhaust pressure to keep the turbo spinning. Add water injection.

[Bob Rosadini]

Wait! Are you saying the Otosan diesels are not Ford designed? If not that sucks. I'm a proud Ford guy. I think the engine should always match the name on the hood or tailgate.

According to a very knowledgeable friend of mine who is employed on the world heavy truck scene, FPT may have sold the design rights long ago . In the meantime, Ford Otosan has done a lot to upgrade the original design to current standards. Thus sounds like not much of the original FPT design remains.

[jpd80]

According to a very knowledgeable friend of mine who is employed on the world heavy truck scene, FPT may have sold the design rights long ago . In the meantime, Ford Otosan has done a lot to upgrade the original design to current standards. Thus sounds like not much of the original FPT design remains.

It's not the original design.

The first 7,3 Ecotorqoe production line that commenced in 2003 was broken up and replaced by a bought in Gen 2 from Fiat, the 9.0 liter

was a quick way of meeting tougher European emission limits.. The third generation 13.0 liter was developed from the ground up on site

by the Ford-Otosan JV engineering group.

Edited February 25, 2017 by jpd80

[Bob Rosadini]

It's not the original design.

The first 7,3 Ecotorqoe production line that commenced in 2003 was broken up and replaced by a bought in Gen 2 from Fiat, the 9.0 liter

was a quick way of meeting tougher European emission limits.. The third generation 13.0 liter was developed from the ground up on site

by the Ford-Otosan JV engineering group.

Thx for info. Is the 9.0 still in production? Any clue as to why Ford does not use these "inhouse" engines in the Briazilian built Cargo??

By the way wasn't AVL also part fo the design effort in the new motor?

[Joe771476]

Ford has to be kidding! Bluebird Bus is heavily promoting and selling these Roush propane V10's in school bus magazine print ads!!!! Is Ford nuts? I think Daimler/Freightliner/Thomas and International called up Ford and said, "hey you're killing us with that Roush V10, could you give us a break and stop?" No, really I'm serious! Bluebird is the top producer of school buses. They tout the millions of miles these V10's have racked up! Eh, Ford get out of the medium biz, you're just lazin' around. Either get serious, or get out!

Edited February 28, 2017 by Joe771476

[twintornados]

Ford has to be kidding! Bluebird Bus is heavily promoting and selling these Roush propane V10's in school bus magazine print ads!!!! Is Ford nuts? I think Daimler/Freightliner/Thomas and International called up Ford and said, "hey you're killing us with that Roush V10, could you give us a break and stop?" No, really I'm serious! Bluebird is the top producer of school buses. They tout the millions of miles these V10's have racked up! Eh, Ford get out of the medium biz, you're just lazin' around. Either get serious, or get out!

.

I believe that this is yet another reason why Ford will continue to produce the V10...

[7Mary3]

Ford has to be kidding! Bluebird Bus is heavily promoting and selling these Roush propane V10's in school bus magazine print ads!!!! Is Ford nuts? I think Daimler/Freightliner/Thomas and International called up Ford and said, "hey you're killing us with that Roush V10, could you give us a break and stop?" No, really I'm serious! Bluebird is the top producer of school buses. They tout the millions of miles these V10's have racked up! Eh, Ford get out of the medium biz, you're just lazin' around. Either get serious, or get out!

 

Got that information about the V-10 from a school bus industry insider, but he didn't say there would not be a replacement........

 

Both Thomas and IC offer their own propane fueled school buses, I doubt they put any pressure on Blue Bird to drop theirs!

[jpd80]

Thx for info. Is the 9.0 still in production? Any clue as to why Ford does not use these "inhouse" engines in the Briazilian built Cargo??

By the way wasn't AVL also part fo the design effort in the new motor?

The 9.0 Gen 2 was sourced from Fiat, Ford sourcing the engine from Fiat but then

adding their accessories to make it a unique design.

 

The 6.7 Powerstroke development was outsourced to AVL but i can find no reference back to

them for the new Ecotorq...

Edited March 2, 2017 by jpd80

[Bob Rosadini]

Well I saw a "Ford Commercial Truck" ad pop up a couple of times during the Atlanta race this weekend. And for maybe one "nanosecond" there was a 650/750 bucket truck in the background! I don't get it. They want to cover the "commercial" market and they are the only producer covering class 1-class 7. Yet they do NOTHING to highlight that fact.

 

I know I sound like a broken record but IMO these people haven't a clue when it comes to marketing. Yes I know-they are killing class 6 now. However, take the gas job out of that picture and how successful would THAT effort be.

[twintornados]

I saw a Coca-cola truck heading down the road where I live and it was an F750 regular cab....looked good in red including the grille....

Edited March 6, 2017 by twintornados

[Bob Rosadini]

I saw a Coca-cola truck heading down the road where I live and it was an F750 regular cab....looked good in red including the grille....

TT- good news for sure. The Coke fleet here in MA is pretty much Navistar and F'liner. They still have some Sterling tandem tractors in service that do the big box stores pulling 45' conventional boxes-not beverage bodies.

[Bob Rosadini]

One Ford! Perhaps we will see this trickle down to heavy trucks?? Make that class 7??

 

Why Ford stands by its 'One Ford' philosophy

 

Automotive News / March 7, 2017

One argument for selling Opel to PSA is that General Motors' global engineering demands suddenly get a lot less complex.

 

What's more, GM's Detroit bosses say there's far less overlap between Europe and the re‎st of the world these days.

 

Well, Ford of Europe product development chief Joe Bakaj isn't commenting on GM's retreat from Europe, but he's adamant that Ford sees no reason to step away from its "One Ford" philosophy.

 

"We're still convinced that our One Ford global engineering‎ structure is working for us," he said. "You can see some of the results on our stand her‎e today.

 

"The Mustang last year was the No. 1 selling sports car in Europe -- it outsold the Porsche 911 in Germany. How could t‎hat happen without strong One Ford global engineering?"

 

‎A decade or so ago, the Mustang's manual gearshift was, Bakaj concedes, "a point of contention."

 

But the current Mustang shifter, developed with Getrag and refined in Europe, has been praised by finicky European car journalists.

 

"Through One Ford we were able to apply manual transmission expertise in Europe into the global product, and we now have a great-shifting Mustang that has done really well," he said. "That to me is a great example of how global engineering can work for us, taking the best knowledge from each region.

 

"‎If (Ford product development boss) Raj Nair was here he'd tell you how fortunate he is to have part of his product development team here in Europe. It's a global knowledge base."

 

A key factor, Bakaj says, is developing mainstream cars that will traverse the Autobahn, Autoroute and Autostrada at breakneck speeds.‎

 

"It does count," he says. "An example of a great global product is the Focus RS, which we now sell in the U.S."

 

The Focus RS was set up to go 265 kmh (165 mph) on the Autobahn every day of the week.

 

"When you develop a vehicle to be safe and controllable at those speeds it forces you to cascade that knowledge right down into the details of every component in the vehicle."

[Bob Rosadini]

I saw a Coca-cola truck heading down the road where I live and it was an F750 regular cab....looked good in red including the grille....

Well yesterday I saw a new 650/750 beverage body. Was not a "Major brand" and I was standing in the road with bunch of people (including detail cop) as we discussed a project when truck went by. Was a Power Stroke for sure and I'll say this it was quiet. I know the sales stats have then killing Hino but it sure isn't happening here in this part of New England-get out on Mass Pike or I-495 and its a Hino parade. Fords? MIA.

[lfeg]

In over 600 miles of driving Wednesday, the only new F650 I saw was a U Haul. Have the return trip coming up tomorrow, will report what I see.

[Joe771476]

Bob, I see the same thing on I-91 in CT....Like I think I mentioned a while back, that Hino dealer in Springfield/West Springfield is doing one hell of a job! But the Hinos are all white box straight jobs. I see some Fords in that capacity, but I see a lot of vocational applications with the Fords, none with Hino. And maybe i was too hard on the boys from Dearborn. They are trying. There's a mail flyer going out to potential customers with a pic of an F750 dump being loaded with fill. "Get up to $1500 upfit assistance, plus up to $1000 commercial cash." Also, print ad on back page of Work Truck magazine shows a DTE utility boom truck touting the clean chassis rails and Ford telematics. Magazine also has a page devoted to used truck prices. Here's a strange one: A 2014 F750 crew cab is wholesale 42K, retail 49K. A 2014 Hino 338 regular cab is 46 and 53? Why? Vactron Equipment print ad shows a vacuum excavator truck on a new crew cab Ford medium.

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob, I see the same thing on I-91 in CT....Like I think I mentioned a while back, that Hino dealer in Springfield/West Springfield is doing one hell of a job! But the Hinos are all white box straight jobs. I see some Fords in that capacity, but I see a lot of vocational applications with the Fords, none with Hino. And maybe i was too hard on the boys from Dearborn. They are trying. There's a mail flyer going out to potential customers with a pic of an F750 dump being loaded with fill. "Get up to $1500 upfit assistance, plus up to $1000 commercial cash." Also, print ad on back page of Work Truck magazine shows a DTE utility boom truck touting the clean chassis rails and Ford telematics. Magazine also has a page devoted to used truck prices. Here's a strange one: A 2014 F750 crew cab is wholesale 42K, retail 49K. A 2014 Hino 338 regular cab is 46 and 53? Why? Vactron Equipment print ad shows a vacuum excavator truck on a new crew cab Ford medium.

Joe- Hear you on the Hino boxes but there are a number of Hino dealers here in NewEngland that are advertising 338 Hinos (33,000 lb) in stock with 2800 gal oil tanks or propane bobtails. Also equipment dealers as well who have Hino's in their pool truck figures-but no Fords. Any Ford dealers advertising 750's so equipped? Not a one. Actually any Ford dealers with a 33,000 lb 750 chassis in stock? don't think so.

 

And as for that Ford ad proclaiming clean frame rails as a big advantage? As I previously posted-just shows their lack of medium/heavy truck knowledge-what medium truck today does NOT have clean rails? Next they will be advertising.." and Ford mediums have pneumatic tires!"

 

As for those ads with used prices, I wouldn't lose any sleep over those-fact they are comparing crew cabs with conventional cabs??? apples to oranges.

Good thing Ford has the gasoline cost advantage in class 6-that is what I think is providing the good sales numbers in class 6

 

Again- any OAP employees out there who can give us some stats on gas vs diesel production figures for 650-750?

[lfeg]

Well, on my 600+ mile drive yesterday, there were very few trucks of any size on the road due to very high winds. The few mediums on the road were mostly Freightliners with a few Internationals. No Fords or Hinos to be seen.

 

In my area, there is a very aggressive Hino dealer. Hence, increasing numbers of them on the road. The big Ford truck dealer in the area has quite a few F650s on the lots, but whenever I go by there are no F750s on the front line. And other than at the U Haul locations, you almost never see the new F650s and F750s in use, not even as "landscaper special" dumps.

[Bob Rosadini]

Well, on my 600+ mile drive yesterday, there were very few trucks of any size on the road due to very high winds. The few mediums on the road were mostly Freightliners with a few Internationals. No Fords or Hinos to be seen.

 

In my area, there is a very aggressive Hino dealer. Hence, increasing numbers of them on the road. The big Ford truck dealer in the area has quite a few F650s on the lots, but whenever I go by there are no F750s on the front line. And other than at the U Haul locations, you almost never see the new F650s and F750s in use, not even as "landscaper special" dumps.

Ifeg. Ditto..Probably 5 dealers within 50 miles of me who have all sorts of 650 dumps-4-6 yd bodies in stock-mostly gas. Also a lot of chassis set up for same applications. NO 33,000 lb chassis. Dealer friend of mine who stocks all kinds of 650's told me a while back OAP had built a loaded 750 at 33,000 set up for a 6-8 yd dump and the zone guy was trying to find a home for it-he passed.

[7Mary3]

Well, based on what I see (and not backed up by any factual statistics) about 1/2 of the new model F-650's have been gasoline powered U-Haul rentals. Most of the rest have been studio rental trucks, again the majority gasoline powered. The City Of Los Angeles (big buyer of gasoline TopKicks before GM quit building them) looks to be testing the the water, I have seen a couple of new 650's in their various department fleets. I wouldn't say a discouraging report, but it's pretty clear who is buying them and who is not.

[jpd80]

Could Ford be sitting on a potential gold mine and not realize it?

 

The 6.2 seems to sell well in F250 (~50%) but then falls off to around 25% or less in F350

The 6.8 V10 seems to sell well in F650 but then tapers off quickly in F750....

 

Hmmm.... looks like a bigger gas engine is needed for F350 and F450/550, maybe the 6.8 V10 or new 7.0 V8?

And then for the F650, perhaps a new 7.0 V8 and perhaps a 8.7 V10 version for the F750......

 

Just thinking outside the box here and making the 6.2 boss into the new "Modular Engine"......

[Bob Rosadini]

Well, based on what I see (and not backed up by any factual statistics) about 1/2 of the new model F-650's have been gasoline powered U-Haul rentals. Most of the rest have been studio rental trucks, again the majority gasoline powered. The City Of Los Angeles (big buyer of gasoline TopKicks before GM quit building them) looks to be testing the the water, I have seen a couple of new 650's in their various department fleets. I wouldn't say a discouraging report, but it's pretty clear who is buying them and who is not.

Big 10-4 on the U-hauls. I have also seen a lot of Blue Diamond 650/750's in Enterprise colors but no OAP's in those colors- Enterprise seems to be buying Hinos

 

Could Ford be sitting on a potential gold mine and not realize it?

 

The 6.2 seems to sell well in F250 (~50%) but then falls off to around 25% or less in F350

The 6.8 V10 seems to sell well in F650 but then tapers off quickly in F750....

 

Hmmm.... looks like a bigger gas engine is needed for F350 and F450/550, maybe the 6.8 V10 or new 7.0 V8?

And then for the F650, perhaps a new 7.0 V8 and perhaps a 8.7 V10 version for the F750......

 

Just thinking outside the box here and making the 6.2 boss into the new "Modular Engine"......

Many on this thread (TT. Olwiz, Ifeg, etc) would concur with the need for a bigger gas engine with decent fuel numbers-as well as good LPG/CNG/LNG conversion capabilities. There are plenty of buyers who want to be legal at 33,000 lbs -and higher for that matter-but do not run significant annual miles to justify the diesel premiums.

 

And again-broken record I know-I still say another diesel/transmission option to the 6.7 V-8/ Torqueshift is needed. I have to believe many sales are lost,not because of the "pick up cab", but rather the perception that the power train is a "pick up" power train.

 

I bought a lot of Fords in my time-and often at risk because there were people in my company who made the .." Fords will nickel and dime you to death". I said-"well I'll buy arm rests all day long but I won't worry about replacing frames." And I was talking about class 8's that operated in some states with 104,000 GCW on 5 axles-and Haz Mat at that.

 

Not sure I would be comfortable buying a 750 diesel today at 33,000-in spite of the warranty. When you are depending on a warranty to justify your decision, be prepared to deal with the downtime associated with your truck being in the shop as well as the BS associated with getting the warranty honored.

 

And I don't think Ford has the same rep as say Toyota (Hino?) when it comes to eating the bill.

[hwyman3]

It has concerned me as well with the current sales of the F-650s. We know U-Haul only buys gas powered trucks, and they have been holding on to the GMC mediums for awhile. Once U-Haul completes their fleet replenishment, what will happen to the sales of the F-650? Currently, Ford is the only game in town, but what happens when Navistar and GM release their new medium. I believe I read it will also offer a gasoline engine as well. I would like to see Ford get serious in the Medium Duty sector.

[lfeg]

Could Ford be sitting on a potential gold mine and not realize it?

 

The 6.2 seems to sell well in F250 (~50%) but then falls off to around 25% or less in F350

The 6.8 V10 seems to sell well in F650 but then tapers off quickly in F750....

 

Hmmm.... looks like a bigger gas engine is needed for F350 and F450/550, maybe the 6.8 V10 or new 7.0 V8?

And then for the F650, perhaps a new 7.0 V8 and perhaps a 8.7 V10 version for the F750......

 

Just thinking outside the box here and making the 6.2 boss into the new "Modular Engine"......

The 6.2 drops off quite a bit in the F350 for several reasons, and a larger gas engine would not make much difference. In the consumer market the "diesel aura" is pretty strong for the F350. And in the commercial market there are users where the diesel is the wise choice, and still a lot of "well, we always went diesel". Now, in the F750 (and also some of the F650) a larger displacement gas engine would open things up to more potential users, especially if there was a turnkey factory propane option.