New Light & Medium Duty News

[jpd80]

Correct, I bet there were more than a few engineers at Ford regretting that move.

 

I'm hoping that the rumored 7.0 V8 can provide an even larger capacity MD engine off the same architecture.

 

At the Moment, the Boss 6.2 approximates the older Lima 370 that was used in F Series years ago,

the rumor of a 7.0 V8 gives F Series a 428 or 429 equivalent, now all that's needed is a 460 or better for MD.

Edited June 4, 2017 by jpd80

[Sevensecondsuv]

I thought the 460 was never used in medium duty past the F-Super Duty (called F-450 nowadays)...?

 

They only did one forged crank and made the 370 and 429 with it. The 460s had cast cranks so they weren't fully rated for heavy truck.

[7Mary3]

I think the only GMC's it was offered in was that High tilt-not to be confused with the Astro, and that long nose conventional (I think 121" BBC)

 

The 702 was in a version of the GMC steel tilt (think Ford C series) with a raised up cab. It was also in the short conventional 'B' series, which was like the Ford N series. The long-nose GMC's were all diesel. In the 'B', 6 cylinders were under the hood, the other 6 were under the cab floor!

[7Mary3]

I thought the 460 was never used in medium duty past the F-Super Duty (called F-450 nowadays)...?

 

They only did one forged crank and made the 370 and 429 with it. The 460s had cast cranks so they weren't fully rated for heavy truck.

That's how I remember it.

[jpd80]

It was never my intention to imply that the LIMA 460 was used in MD, sorry if my post gave that impression.

You are correct - at the time MD production ended, the only gas engine offered was the 429 (Steel crank)

and then it was limited to the "light MD" F550 with diesel only in F650 and up.

 

The 6.8V10 (413 CID) is currently used in MD and is considered OK for F650 but too small for F750.

Hence, my hope that the rumored 7.0 V8 replacement will also have a larger version for MD (460 CID or better)..

 

I see Ford's involvement in today's MD market as a little different, they only want those easy F650 gasoline sales

and whatever diesel F750 sales come on top of that. A 7.0 V8 may give Ford more gas sales in the F350-F650 range

which I suspect is all Ford really wants..

Edited June 4, 2017 by jpd80

[SoonerLS]

I am sure that after production ended in 1997, Ford re-tooled the line and got rid of the production equipment.

Probably--the 460 in the Ford Performance catalog is apparently built on a tall-deck Windsor block (which would seem to be wildly infeasible in big truck applications, though I could certainly be wrong on that), so my guess would be that the tooling for the 460 is long gone.

[Stray Kat]

Wait a second there is still a true 460 block available. I think it's referred to as the "A460" block.

 

It is made for big inch race engines.

 

Now gang all this conjecture about whether or not Ford will go into the super big gas engine business is wishful thinking.

 

I personally hope Ford does any and all of their engines in house but history has taught us that those days are over.

 

Recent examples which were at times nightmarish were the Detroit Diesel "fuel pincher" V8. That was a disaster.

 

Later it was the hot and cold results with the Navistar V8 diesels.

 

I frankly scratch my head as to why you'd ever want to use an engine vendor for such a high volume product.

 

Had Ford done the Powerstroke in house I doubt very seriously they would have had such out of control problems as they had with the 6.0.

 

That disaster hurts Ford to this day.

 

No I think Ford should really be careful if they get tempted to buy into Class 7 and 8 gas engines such as the Cummins.

 

To this day having a Ford engine under the hood is a very good thing. I think Ford really projects quality and durability despite the aforementioned vendor supplied examples.

 

If you want my pie in the sky thoughts I'd say Ford needs to build a true Class 8 diesel whose tooling can also support a gaseous version of said engine.

 

Otherwise it's going to be Ford taking the low hanging fruit like you see today.

[Stray Kat]

Wait a second there is still a true 460 block available. I think it's referred to as the "A460" block.

 

It is made for big inch race engines.

 

Now gang all this conjecture about whether or not Ford will go into the super big gas engine business is wishful thinking.

 

I personally hope Ford does any and all of their engines in house but history has taught us that those days are over.

 

Recent examples which were at times nightmarish were the Detroit Diesel "fuel pincher" V8. That was a disaster.

 

Later it was the hot and cold results with the Navistar V8 diesels.

 

I frankly scratch my head as to why you'd ever want to use an engine vendor for such a high volume product.

 

Had Ford done the Powerstroke in house I doubt very seriously they would have had such out of control problems as they had with the 6.0.

 

That disaster hurts Ford to this day.

 

No I think Ford should really be careful if they get tempted to buy into Class 7 and 8 gas engines such as the Cummins.

 

To this day having a Ford engine under the hood is a very good thing. I think Ford really projects quality and durability despite the aforementioned vendor supplied examples.

 

If you want my pie in the sky thoughts I'd say Ford needs to build a true Class 8 diesel whose tooling can also support a gaseous version of said engine.

 

Otherwise it's going to be Ford taking the low hanging fruit like you see today.

[SoonerLS]

Wait a second there is still a true 460 block available. I think it's referred to as the "A460" block.

But who makes it? The 460 that Ford is selling in the Ford Performance catalog explicitly says it's a tall-deck 351W, and it's not exactly certain if Ford is making it or if they've contracted it out.

I personally hope Ford does any and all of their engines in house but history has taught us that those days are over.

Hmm...it seems to me that all of Ford's current-generation F-Series engines are Ford-designed engines, from the D35 in the F150 up through the 6.7 Scorpion and 6.8 V10 in the big F-Series trucks...

[Sevensecondsuv]

I can't help but think that the lack of transmission options is holding Ford back in the big trucks too. The 6R140 is a heck of a transmission, but it was, after all, developed to fit in a pickup truck. As impressive as it is that they can warranty it for 250,000 with those kinds of gvwr, it's definitely on the small/frail end of the spectrum of heavy truck transmissions. It's too bad the scorpion and V10 don't have SAE bellhousings because that would really open up transmission options.

 

Then again the 370/429 were offered with the medium duty transmission options of the day even though they had a BBF bellhousing, not SAE. So where there's a will, there's obviously a way....

[lfeg]

In the heyday of Ford class 7 and 8 trucks, the only completely Ford designed and built engines were the Super Duties. Most diesels were Detroit, Cat, or Cummins. There were some Ford-New Holland diesels in the heavier Class 6 and light class 7.

[Bob Rosadini]

In the heyday of Ford class 7 and 8 trucks, the only completely Ford designed and built engines were the Super Duties. Most diesels were Detroit, Cat, or Cummins. There were some Ford-New Holland diesels in the heavier Class 6 and light class 7.

Ifeg- what about the 330 from 1963? These were built at Dagenham and were available in c series and N series. In 1967, a 363 cube diesel also built in England (Dorset) was added.

 

And I think the 6 cylinder engines (6.6L and 7.8L) that replaced the Cat V-8's (V-225-636) were built by Ford in Brazil before the New Holland deal. Rugged blocks as they were tractor engines. We had some LN-8000's with the 7.8 @ 240 horse. 35,000 lb ratings so we paid the FET. I believe they were dropped in favor of the 8.3 Cummins when it became too costly to meet new emissions regs.

[Stray Kat]

Yes but the lions share of diesel power went to outside vendors.

 

I had heard one time that Ford had something to do with the Cat 636's coming about but I can't verify that.

 

Those things were even painted Ford blue at first but then later they were "kitty" yellow.

 

It's too easy to simply buy than to tool up for something like a diesel.

 

I say that's good short term thinking but it has bitten Ford in the ass too many times.

 

I hope that whatever business they chase they do it with a sterling reputation.

[twintornados]

Yes but the lions share of diesel power went to outside vendors.

 

I had heard one time that Ford had something to do with the Cat 636's coming about but I can't verify that.

 

Those things were even painted Ford blue at first but then later they were "kitty" yellow.

 

It's too easy to simply buy than to tool up for something like a diesel.

 

I say that's good short term thinking but it has bitten Ford in the ass too many times.

 

I hope that whatever business they chase they do it with a sterling reputation.

.

Once again, Ford already builds some big diesels, they just build them elsewhere for other markets.

[Bob Rosadini]

Yes but the lions share of diesel power went to outside vendors. Correct-100% class 8 and once the 330/363 were dropped and before the Brazil ag engines ,100% outside in class 6 and 7

 

I had heard one time that Ford had something to do with the Cat 636's coming about but I can't verify that. My understanding as well-and the were "Ford Blue" and Identified as V-175, V-200 etc

 

Those things were even painted Ford blue at first but then later they were "kitty" yellow.

 

It's too easy to simply buy than to tool up for something like a diesel. agree-unless it is something that can be used in class 3-4-5

 

I say that's good short term thinking but it has bitten Ford in the ass too many times.

 

I hope that whatever business they chase they do it with a sterling reputation. " sterling"-pun intended?

 

 

.

Once again, Ford already builds some big diesels, they just build them elsewhere for other markets. I should have mentioned that, but every time one of us brings up the "Turks", others suggest the certification routines would be too costly. But I agree-"One Ford"-or is that phrase out the window now??

[Sevensecondsuv]

It wasn't 100% outsourced. I see plenty of F600/700 right up to 1997 with the 429 gas.

 

Also as mentioned, the Ford 6.6 and 7.8 I-6 diesels from the ag tractors were fairly common up until they didn't meet emissions regs in the late 80s. Those were some serious motors. A guy I know has a 6.6/401 in a 9700 ag tractor with over 20,000 hours on it. Still uses it regularly. He says that HP per HP, fuel economy is much better than a modern tractor with emissions equipment on it.

[Bob Rosadini]

It wasn't 100% outsourced. I see plenty of F600/700 right up to 1997 with the 429 gas.

 

Also as mentioned, the Ford 6.6 and 7.8 I-6 diesels from the ag tractors were fairly common up until they didn't meet emissions regs in the late 80s. Those were some serious motors. A guy I know has a 6.6/401 in a 9700 ag tractor with over 20,000 hours on it. Still uses it regularly. He says that HP per HP, fuel economy is much better than a modern tractor with emissions equipment on it.

I believe reference was to diesels.

[jpd80]

Waiting for new truck engines from Ford is like watching a drunk pick himself up off the train tracks,

will they succeed before getting run over...

[Joe771476]

Okay now I'm totally confused. Latest Bluebird Bus mag ad touts the 6.8L V10 GASOLINE engine, no mention of Roush propane conversion. It mentions 1.8 million produced, low acquisition cost, impressive cold weather startup, more mechanics (gasoline vs. diesel), simple low cost maintenance and gasoline availability. Now that I think about it, I see a ton of Bluebird buses but they do NOT have the green bird on the side of the roof which is supposed to indicate it's propane-powered. All the birds I've seen are black. So these buses are either gas or diesel. But my point is I thought Ford was discontinuing the V10.

[twintornados]

....I thought Ford was discontinuing the V10.

.

The reports of it's demise is greatly exaggerated.

[Sevensecondsuv]

It ain't going anywhere soon. It's really pretty incredible the long list of applications that motor has found it's way into. School buses to tow trucks to irrigation pumps to SUVs to ambulances to U-haul vans to party buses to airport luggage tugs. There'd be a lot of pissed-off and scrambling customers/industries if Ford axed it.

[jpd80]

in just over a couple of years the V10 will be gone replaced by the new V8.

[twintornados]

The correctional facility where I work just got a new 2017 F650 box truck for the messhall and it has the "Triton V10" badge next to the F650 badge which is now styled like the F150 badge...

[351cid]

The V-10 is an excellent engine. If you've not ever driven our owned one; you have no idea.

 

Diesel like power with gas economics (maintenance, fuel availability, initial cost).

 

Ford will have to come up with a doozy engine to replaced it.

[Joe771476]

According to Transport Topics, Class 6 had some surprises last month. Freightliner is first at 1742, International at 1131, Ford third at 1100!!! Huh??!! That's down from 1700 units the month before. According to the article, Ford did not offer a reason for the steep decline. I'm hoping it's because as someone mentioned here, Ford has ended this year's model production. Anything new is 2018 MY? Could that be the reason? Also, I read in Ford Pros, a quasi mag of the National Ford Truck Club, that Scelzi Enterprises is the #3 upfitter for F650/F750 and a long wheelbased F750 stake truck and an F650 dump body were shown. Also, some company called Acela known for 4X4's and 6X6's is producing the Monterra class 6 truck for extreme applications.