BORG Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) There's no reason they should really want to. You can spread the price range further with two uniquely styled and sized vehicles. The one lacking the ability to spread the potential customer base right now is clearly the MKS, not the MKZ. The MKZ has some functional disadvantages which will limit its reach for some customers that are cross-shopping, but I couldn't tell you how many are interested in the MKZ because of other factors. You're talking to somebody who didn't buy the 2013 MKZ because of those significant functional disadvantages. I just know that the MKZ didn't offer enough advantages to overcome some pretty fundamental ones, like the fact I have to crawl into the car to fit under the roofline. I certainly dont' have that experience with most modern sedans like the CTS or Lexus ES for example. Edited March 25, 2013 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Something interesting about the large sedan segment? It's almost impossible to find a company that sells a basic model, like a Taurus with Fusion S-levels of equipment. I'm not saying that many of those would be flying off the lots, but it would bring down the starting MSRP and probably not scare off as many people as the current one does (or might). All of this aside, I do want to see what the dimensions of a stretched CD4 sedan would be. As long as the extra length isn't mostly encountered in overhangs (Camry to Avalon), it's fine with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) The MKZ has some functional disadvantages which will limit its reach for some customers that are cross-shopping, but I couldn't tell you how many are interested in the MKZ because of other factors. You're talking to somebody who didn't buy the 2013 MKZ because of those significant functional disadvantages. Functional disadvantages? Something tells me none of those have to do with this topic. And it's not like Lincoln and Cadillac are saying they won't continue to sell large cars just because they don't want to compete in 7-series or S-class territory. I think they are much more referring to the price points, not the vehicle sizes. There's still plenty of room to play between where the CTS/MKZ max out and where the core of the 7-series/S-class market sits. In other words, I don't think we'll be seeing V12 $100,000+ XTS's or MKS's anytime soon. And why should we? Edited March 25, 2013 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Problem is that any Ford product would not have the perception of exclusivity. Or plain old snob appeal. The only way that I see a Ford large sedan here in the future is if one would be developed primarily for the Chinese market (in Ford or Lincoln guise) and sales there could support it. The market for large sedans is growing there. That is one of the big reasons that we have the Buick Lacrosse - sales here added to sales in China are decent. well, they have shown they can do it based on the trade ins Im witnessing on Explorers, Edges, Fusions and focus's...Fords perception has changed over the years...DRAMATICALLY.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Functional disadvantages? Something tells me none of those have to do with this topic. And it's not like Lincoln and Cadillac are saying they won't continue to sell large cars just because they don't want to compete in 7-series or S-class territory. I think they are much more referring to the price points, not the vehicle sizes. There's still plenty of room to play between where the CTS/MKZ max out and where the core of the 7-series/S-class market sits. In other words, I don't think we'll be seeing V12 $100,000+ XTS's or MKS's anytime soon. And why should we? They actually said they were not going after large luxury sedans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 They actually said they were not going after large luxury sedans. What does that mean though? I don't believe they said they weren't going after large sedans, period. Just not those like the 7-series, or S-class. True "flagship" type vehicles. That certainly doesn't preclude a redesigned MKS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 well, they have shown they can do it based on the trade ins Im witnessing on Explorers, Edges, Fusions and focus's...Fords perception has changed over the years...DRAMATICALLY.... I would agree that Ford is now seen as a more premium vehicle that customers are willing to pay more for with the latest technology. And it shows in Ford's profits in FNA. And even used Ford vehicles command better prices than past. It's almost like the whole company went upmarket. I guess it did with MFT, Titanium, and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I would agree that Ford is now seen as a more premium vehicle that customers are willing to pay more for with the latest technology. And it shows in Ford's profits in FNA. And even used Ford vehicles command better prices than past. It's almost like the whole company went upmarket. I guess it did with MFT, Titanium, and so on. And by eliminating bottom feeder trim lines and completely outdated models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 The MKZ has some functional disadvantages which will limit its reach for some customers that are cross-shopping, but I couldn't tell you how many are interested in the MKZ because of other factors. You're talking to somebody who didn't buy the 2013 MKZ because of those significant functional disadvantages. I just know that the MKZ didn't offer enough advantages to overcome some pretty fundamental ones, like the fact I have to crawl into the car to fit under the roofline. I certainly dont' have that experience with most modern sedans like the CTS or Lexus ES for example. weathy people dont give a rats about functional dis-advantages...witness landrover Evoques and mercedes CLS parked outside Pavillions bveing used as nothing more than a shopping basket..its all about standing out and image most of the time....stereotypes here I come...mooohooohahahaha.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 What does that mean though? I don't believe they said they weren't going after large sedans, period. Just not those like the 7-series, or S-class. True "flagship" type vehicles. That certainly doesn't preclude a redesigned MKS. IMO, they will offer a viable DESIRABLE alternative at 60% of the cost....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 All of this aside, I do want to see what the dimensions of a stretched CD4 sedan would be. As long as the extra length isn't mostly encountered in overhangs (Camry to Avalon), it's fine with me. Don't think length stretch, think the car getting wider. The Fusion and current Taurus are very close to one another in wheelbase. The biggest different is actual width of the vehicle...I think its nearly 3 inches when you compare the current Edge to the Fusion. The Taurus doesn't need to get any bigger on the outside (IMO could shrink a bit), it needs to bigger in the insides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) IMO, they will offer a viable DESIRABLE alternative at 60% of the cost....... Right. I don't see Lincoln launching any uber-flagship with a $65,000 starting price anytime soon. With confirmation that they will continue on with the Navigator though, which can push upwards of $70,000, we have an indicator of how high Lincoln is willing to go at least. That leaves a lot of real estate between a maxed out MKZ and the upper price points Lincoln seems to be comfortable with for the brand. Edited March 25, 2013 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Right. I don't see Lincoln launching any uber-flagship with a $65,000 starting price anytime soon. With confirmation that they will continue on with the Navigator though, which can push upwards of $70,000, we have an indicator of how high Lincoln is willing to go at least. That leaves a lot of real estate between a maxed out MKZ and the upper price points Lincoln seems to be comfortable with for the brand. summink tells me the upper segment will ultimately be adressed, not right now but it will be......and IMO will be an eye-opener....STILL think the 5.0 engine is underutilized.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Don't think length stretch, think the car getting wider. The Fusion and current Taurus are very close to one another in wheelbase. The biggest different is actual width of the vehicle...I think its nearly 3 inches when you compare the current Edge to the Fusion. The Taurus doesn't need to get any bigger on the outside (IMO could shrink a bit), it needs to bigger in the insides. Suppose the current car's width and length were carried over (ok, maybe shortened to 200 inches or so) but with the wheelbase of the Flex, then... :reading: Basically, you'd end up with a Taurus having the same footprint as the current model but quite a bit more usable space inside, provided they packaged it correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) weathy people dont give a rats about functional dis-advantages...witness landrover Evoques and mercedes CLS parked outside Pavillions bveing used as nothing more than a shopping basket..its all about standing out and image most of the time....stereotypes here I come...mooohooohahahaha.... The MKZ isn't that type of car, you don't buy an MKZ to be seen in. Edited March 25, 2013 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 The MKZ isn't that type of car, you don't buy an MKZ to be seen in. That's why this car is really kinda weird and I'm not sure how well it's going to pan out long term. write those words down and mull on them, I think youre in for a rude surprize...the car IS stunning and looks like nothing else on the road......conquest sales here we come..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 The MKZ isn't that type of car, you don't buy an MKZ to be seen in. That's why this car is really kinda weird and I'm not sure how well it's going to pan out long term. The MKZ has that weird French outsider charm, eccentric because that's the only thing it can do to stand out. Lincoln isn't for snobs....I think you seriously have a personality conflict going on...you buy Lincoln but you want an Audi or some other German make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Lincoln isn't for snobs....I think you seriously have a personality conflict going on...you buy Lincoln but you want an Audi or some other German make have to agree with that, I dont think the car is for snobs, but for people that want to look a tad different WITHOUT being veiwed as overly ostentatious.....in a way, kind of like some of the SERIOUSLY wealthy people that have purchased Explorers from me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 have to agree with that, I dont think the car is for snobs, but for people that want to look a tad different WITHOUT being veiwed as overly ostentatious.....in a way, kind of like some of the SERIOUSLY wealthy people that have purchased Explorers from me.... ...which is why I think my mom would really like one. She liked pictures when I showed her. She currently is still rolling around in a '98 Avalon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 ...which is why I think my mom would really like one. She liked pictures when I showed her. She currently is still rolling around in a '98 Avalon. yep, stand out, classy and not SCREAMING look how much i can spend on a shopping basket.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 have to agree with that, I dont think the car is for snobs, but for people that want to look a tad different WITHOUT being veiwed as overly ostentatious.....in a way, kind of like some of the SERIOUSLY wealthy people that have purchased Explorers from me.... Around here, the Lincoln MKS is for Ford retirees. On the other hand, I think the MKZ will sell quite well and to younger crowd and get its fair share of conquest sales. Lincoln could have a winner in the MKZ. Next few months will tell us for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) yep, stand out, classy and not SCREAMING look how much i can spend on a shopping basket.... ...Or you could spend $50K on a Ford Fusion? I'm just saying this goes both ways. Believe me, I know, I bought a $50K Ford Edge three times already and often wonder why I do that (so does everybody around me). I've owned a Ford Edge as well and the difference certainly aren't worth the cost differential, admittedly. The MKZ adds more value because of it's design, not really in content outside of the glass roof. But the experience is different when you own a Lincoln, in many very subtle ways which you don't fully appreciate until you're faced with giving it up. Again, allot of it comes down to design and psychology, especially with Lincoln since there aren't substantive differences. Edited March 25, 2013 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Right. I don't see Lincoln launching any uber-flagship with a $65,000 starting price anytime soon. With confirmation that they will continue on with the Navigator though, which can push upwards of $70,000, we have an indicator of how high Lincoln is willing to go at least. That leaves a lot of real estate between a maxed out MKZ and the upper price points Lincoln seems to be comfortable with for the brand. Let's face it...the real growth is in the small and medium CUV market along with the mid sized sedan which thank god the new MKZ is which should do well. If Lincoln could get its MKC and MKExplorer out in timely manner, Lincoln will be stabilized and have lots of time to figure out what to do with larger sedan segment and any other lower volume niche. And I still strongly believe that every new Lincoln model should have a hybrid offering. It shouldn't end with the MKZ. Luxury buyers like great fuel economy also. Paupers aren't buying Tesla S Models with premium batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) ...Or you could spend $50K on a Ford Fusion? I'm just saying this goes both ways. Believe me, I know, I bought a $50K Ford Edge three times already and often wonder why I do that (so does everybody around me). I've owned a Ford Edge as well and the difference certainly aren't worth the cost differential, admittedly. The MKZ adds more value because of it's design, not really in content outside of the glass roof. But the experience is different when you own a Lincoln, in many very subtle ways which you don't fully appreciate until you're faced with giving it up. Again, allot of it comes down to design and psychology, especially with Lincoln since there aren't substantive differences. and in that light an Audi Q7 is a $$$$ Volkswagon Toureg correct.....and an A4 is a VW..... Edited March 25, 2013 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) Let's face it...the real growth is in the small and medium CUV market along with the mid sized sedan which thank god the new MKZ is which should do well. If Lincoln could get its MKC and MKExplorer out in timely manner, Lincoln will be stabilized and have lots of time to figure out what to do with larger sedan segment and any other lower volume niche. And I still strongly believe that every new Lincoln model should have a hybrid offering. It shouldn't end with the MKZ. Luxury buyers like great fuel economy also. Paupers aren't buying Tesla S Models with premium batteries. Is Ford looking at transference from the Ford Brand "Supersegment" to a Lincoln "Supersegment"? Several years ago, compact luxury was considered a novlty but I think that the MKC is opening doors that more compacts can filter through, A compact SUV for around $35,000 seems plausible, so what about a Mustang V6 Coupe starting at around $32,000 and a V8 for $38,000? Or, would it be so bad to have an MK-Focus sedan with 1.6 EB engine, a Titanium trim +$8000 car on sale starting at $33,000? I know this all sounds like changing Lincoln into a high series Mercury but wouldn't that be the objective of Ford to increase Lincoln's sales in new markets that are more relevant to today's buyers, what would be wrong with aspiring to see Lincoln with a fuller show room? Edited March 25, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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