Lincoln Studying What New Models to Bring Out Next

[Biker16]

I wouldn't lean too heavily on that bit of VW PR....

 

Ford is looking at Lincoln product as being lateral to ford products instead of Lincoln product being vertical to other Lincoln products.

 

So we get the MKZ as a Lincoln version of the Fusion. And the MKC as Lincoln version of the Escape.

 

When you think about the A3 you think of it more as a smaller A4 not as Audi version of the Golf.

 

I don't think ford has done enough to make Lincoln specify switchgear and detailing. Lincoln shares too much with Ford.

 

Money should be invested in Lincoln specific instrument clusters, infotainment systems, buttons handles, touchscreens, steering wheels, and even pedals. These should be shared vertically within Lincoln not laterally with ford platform mates.

 

This is what is needed to build a brand.

 

Not engine displacement that buyer will never see, but maybe a larger touch screen with a different GUI, not simply a version of myfordtouch with a Lincoln logo. The operation could be the same but the symbology should be all Lincoln.

 

Folks have figured out that you can buy the A3 hatch from the local Volkswagen dealer in the form of the GTI... for much much less.

 

there are marked difference between the GTI and the A3, if you cannont understand those differences you do not understand luxtury buyers.

 

GTI

 

A3

 

VS

2013 Fusion

 

2014 MKZ

Edited June 18, 2013 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

Money should be invested in Lincoln specific instrument clusters, infotainment systems, buttons handles, touchscreens, steering wheels, and even pedals. These should be shared vertically within Lincoln not laterally with ford platform mates..

 

In due time. Lincoln will bootstrap further improvements--they aren't going to come from further outside investment funding.

 

The important thing is to leverage platform cost savings to improve things that matter to customers faster than the competition.

[NickF1011]

Ford is looking at Lincoln product as being lateral to ford products instead of Lincoln product being vertical to other Lincoln products.

 

So we get the MKZ as a Lincoln version of the Fusion. And the MKC as Lincoln version of the Escape.

 

When you think about the A3 you think of it more as a smaller A4 not as Audi version of the Golf.

 

I don't think ford has done enough to make Lincoln specify switchgear and detailing. Lincoln shares too much with Ford.

 

Money should be invested in Lincoln specific instrument clusters, infotainment systems, buttons handles, touchscreens, steering wheels, and even pedals. These should be shared vertically within Lincoln not laterally with ford platform mates.

 

This is what is needed to build a brand.

 

Not engine displacement that buyer will never see, but maybe a larger touch screen with a different GUI, not simply a version of myfordtouch with a Lincoln logo. The operation could be the same but the symbology should be all Lincoln.

The only really glaring place where I still see too much commonality between the brands is in the instrument clusters. Much of the other gear you mentioned has already been made Lincoln-specific on the newest models: center stack switchgear, steering wheels, door handles, etc. Some of the other things you are proposing would be prohibitively expensive to implement though, especially during the fledgling re-launch of a relatively low volume brand. Different pedals? Really? Why? And with the kinks still being worked out of MFT, do you really think it would be a good idea to design a completely separate GUI for Lincoln?

 

As for the powertrains, they are already developed for other applications so you're not talking about a gargatuan cost. Making them available for Lincoln lets them offer something extra for almost nothing. Saying that buyers won't appreciate it because they can't see it a cop-out. Do they also not care about extra sound deadening or noise cancellation or premium audio systems since they can't see or touch them?

[BORG]

The Lincoln customer experience is also where Lincoln hopes to differentiate itself, and it's an investment Lincoln shares with the dealers.

 

Although, as both a Lincoln and Ford customer, the substantive differences are pretty minor but Ford obviously sees more inconsistency from dealership to dealership.

Edited June 18, 2013 by BORG

[NickF1011]

The Lincoln customer experience is also where Lincoln hopes to differentiate itself, and it's an investment Lincoln shares with the dealers.

 

Although, as both a Lincoln and Ford customer, the substantive differences are pretty minor but Ford obviously sees more inconsistency from dealership to dealership.

I would say there's likely a far bigger difference in dealer experience between a large, well-run metro Ford dealer and a small, run down rural Ford dealer than between that same large Ford dealer and any Lincoln dealer. I think the part Ford is really trying to stress is that no Lincoln dealer should be anywhere close to as poor as that run down rural Ford dealer at least.

[Biker16]

Who said anything about a "muscle car lover's wet dream"?? Just pointing out that something more the A4's size has more potential for sales than something the A3's size.

 

The comment wasn't aimed at you but the general vibe that HP solves all problems.

 

the Reality of your fascination with the A4 is that it is closer in size the the MKZ than the A3.

L/W/H/WB

A4

185/71.9/56/110

3500lbs

$32k

 

A6

195/73/57/114

3700lbs

$42K

 

MKZ

194/73/83/112

3700lbs

$35K

 

A3

175/70/56/103.4

2900lbs

<$30K

 

looking At the Above comparison you can See the MKZ is already a tweener. priced to compete with the A4 but sized to compete with the A6, it is too Cheap to compete with the A6 and too large to compete with the more athletic A4.

 

I can see a Need to derive a CD4 based small midsized sport sedan, more athletic and nimble than the MKZ, and I still believe You need a small Sedan for China and other global markets.

 

The 1.6 EB wouldn't competitively propel something the size of the A4?

 

an EB15in a 2900lbs car vs an EB15 in a 3500lbs car ,which is more competitive?

 

The only really glaring place where I still see too much commonality between the brands is in the instrument clusters. Much of the other gear you mentioned has already been made Lincoln-specific on the newest models: center stack switchgear, steering wheels, door handles, etc. Some of the other things you are proposing would be prohibitively expensive to implement though, especially during the fledgling re-launch of a relatively low volume brand. Different pedals? Really? Why?

 

Expensive? maybe these touched that the bean counters Deem "inconsequential" will allow Lincoln to charge more of premium for their products. pedal covers are not expensive neither are door switches underneath the linocln specific switch is a standard Ford part, you just need to pay premium for this premium brand

 

This a luxury brand and by definition they all are low volume. yet Lexus has 3 different RWD platforms, Lincoln has no standalone platforms. ford need to stop making excuses and do what needs to be done to make Lincoln a success.

 

And with the kinks still being worked out of MFT, do you really think it would be a good idea to design a completely separate GUI for Lincoln?

 

because It is bull shit to even call MYLincoln touch when it looks just like MYFord touch. Changing the Skin of the interface to look different is not that difficult, you just have to expend the Effort on doing it. I don't see Audi and VW sharing Infotainment systems, why should Ford

 

As for the powertrains, they are already developed for other applications so you're not talking about a gargatuan cost. Making them available for Lincoln lets them offer something extra for almost nothing. Saying that buyers won't appreciate it because they can't see it a cop-out. Do they also not care about extra sound deadening or noise cancellation or premium audio systems since they can't see or touch them?

 

Drivetrains are too expensive to differentiate

 

the Key is to share Vertically, they can develop a stand alone parts bin that is shared throughout the brand, the steering wheel on the A4 is shared with the A3 not the steering wheel on the Golf, for example. when you do this you increase economies of scale and reduce sharing with Ford allows for greater investment because all Lincoln cars, and CUVs will use them.

[NickF1011]

looking At the Above comparison you can See the MKZ is already a tweener. priced to compete with the A4 but sized to compete with the A6, it is too Cheap to compete with the A6 and too large to compete with the more athletic A4.

I think it's the A4 and A6 that are more odd-sized for their classes than the MKZ is. I just don't think Lincoln needs to offer an uber-compact car. :shrug:

because It is bull shit to even call MYLincoln touch when it looks just like MYFord touch. Changing the Skin of the interface to look different is not that difficult, you just have to expend the Effort on doing it. I don't see Audi and VW sharing Infotainment systems, why should Ford

I'll cover all of your other complaints on this by responding to this one: COST. Audi is a global brand with global sales to support all of those unique components you want. Lincoln can eventually get there, but it would simply be a money-losing proposition to attempt it with their current volumes and market position. I expect them to incrementally improve in this area. What you are asking is certainly something to strive for and it should be their eventual goal, but it's just not at all feasible at this point.

Drivetrains are too expensive to differentiate

Lincoln doesn't have any entirely unique powertrains though! Do they offer an engine in the MKZ which isn't offered in the Fusion? Yes. But that engine is also offered in several other vehicles...just NOT the Fusion. I don't foresee any future Lincoln powertrains being any different from this model. I'd be certain that the new nano V6 will find its way into Ford-branded vehicles also, but they will be mixed in a manner which will give the impression that Lincolns are getting something extra for not a whole lot of additional cost to the manufacturer.

[rmc523]

2013 Fusion

 

2014 MKZ

 

The only things I see shared there are perhaps the window switches, the lock buttons, and maybe the turn signal/wiper stalks. Otherwise, I'm seeing differentiated items all over.

 

looking At the Above comparison you can See the MKZ is already a tweener. priced to compete with the A4 but sized to compete with the A6, it is too Cheap to compete with the A6 and too large to compete with the more athletic A4.

 

I can see a Need to derive a CD4 based small midsized sport sedan, more athletic and nimble than the MKZ, and I still believe You need a small Sedan for China and other global markets.

 

 

an EB15in a 2900lbs car vs an EB15 in a 3500lbs car ,which is more competitive?

 

 

Expensive? maybe these touched that the bean counters Deem "inconsequential" will allow Lincoln to charge more of premium for their products. pedal covers are not expensive neither are door switches underneath the linocln specific switch is a standard Ford part, you just need to pay premium for this premium brand

 

This a luxury brand and by definition they all are low volume. yet Lexus has 3 different RWD platforms, Lincoln has no standalone platforms. ford need to stop making excuses and do what needs to be done to make Lincoln a success.

 

 

because It is bull shit to even call MYLincoln touch when it looks just like MYFord touch. Changing the Skin of the interface to look different is not that difficult, you just have to expend the Effort on doing it. I don't see Audi and VW sharing Infotainment systems, why should Ford

 

 

Drivetrains are too expensive to differentiate

 

the Key is to share Vertically, they can develop a stand alone parts bin that is shared throughout the brand, the steering wheel on the A4 is shared with the A3 not the steering wheel on the Golf, for example. when you do this you increase economies of scale and reduce sharing with Ford allows for greater investment because all Lincoln cars, and CUVs will use them.

 

Down the road, I wouldn't be surprised to see a smaller Lincoln sedan, but that type of vehicle is a product that needs to be done right and differentiated appropriately. I'd rather them take their time on it and get it right than rush out a small sedan just so they can say they're in the segment.

 

You mention Lexus - how long did it take Lexus to get to the place they are now? Did it happen overnight? No. Give Lincoln more than one product (and one that wasn't even completely done under their new design team) to show what they can do.

 

As for your sharing vertically thought - they ARE doing that. Look at the MKC concept. The similarities to both the MKZ in concept and production trim show that they will share parts vertically. Again, give them time, it doesn't happen overnight.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Right. It's purely coincidence that Audi & VW AWD systems are frequently the same, and that both engineering units have developed engines that are remarkably similar.

 

Actually, they're not. VWs of recent vintage have used Haldex-type systems (branded 4motion) and cannot be full-time AWD, much like the systems in pretty much every non-truck Ford. Audis with the quattro (longitudinal, Torsen center differential) are always full-time AWD with a default rear bias.

 

As far as engines, you MAY see a few engines from VW used in Audis, but increasingly rarely so now (I'll grant you the diesel). The 2.0TFSI between the companies is differentiated by engine orientation and valvelift (VVT-L in Ford parlance, I think) on the Audis. Outside of those, and outside of the obvious platform-mates (Jetta, Eos, A3, TT; also Touareg, Q7), there's little to no engine sharing. Audis don't use the VR6 from the Passat, VWs don't use the V6S from the S4/S5/A6/A7/A8. And of course, the V8 and W12 go without saying.

 

In recent years (prior to '06) though, VWs have gotten hand-me-down Audi engines for use, so there's that. But like I said, they've gotten away from sharing engines in current models.

 

ETA: All the engines are officially known as "Volkswagen Group engines," FWIW.

Edited June 18, 2013 by papilgee4evaeva

[papilgee4evaeva]

there are marked difference between the GTI and the A3, if you cannont understand those differences you do not understand luxtury buyers.

 

<snip>

 

All in appearance and appointment. Not at all mechanically different.

 

Basically, what you're bashing Lincoln for, you ascribe that to the A3 as "what luxury buyers want."

 

I state this here for truth also: Luxury buyers want the badge.

[Biker16]

All in appearance and appointment. Not at all mechanically different.

 

Basically, what you're bashing Lincoln for, you ascribe that to the A3 as "what luxury buyers want."

 

I state this here for truth also: Luxury buyers want the badge.

 

other than the badge there are a lot of things the A3 is better at than the A4.

 

Of course buyer only buy cars because of the Mechanics,

Edited June 18, 2013 by Biker16

[Edstock]

Ford is looking at Lincoln product as being lateral to ford products instead of Lincoln product being vertical to other Lincoln products.

 

That's your opinion. No proof, no links no nothing. What we have here is a brain-fart.

 

Lincoln product is vertical: the MKS is more expensive than the MKZ, the Navigator more expensive than the MKX and the new MKC will probably be less expensive than the MKX. THat's vertical for ya. Capisce?

[RichardJensen]

Actually, they're not.

The Cayenne/Touareg/Q7 AWD box is shared.

 

And, AFAIK, the AWD box in the A3/S3/TT/Golf/Jetta/Passat is the same

[papilgee4evaeva]

other than the badge there are a lot of things the A3 is better at than the A4.

 

Of course buyer only buy cars because of the Mechanics,

 

What is the A3 better at than the A4? Bear in mind that we in North America will no longer get the hatch but instead the sedan (a restyled Jetta).

 

With your snarky comment at the end, you affirm that people buy for the badge and the badge alone.

 

The Cayenne/Touareg/Q7 AWD box is shared.

 

And, AFAIK, the AWD box in the A3/S3/TT/Golf/Jetta/Passat is the same

 

Well, I allowed for those in my post.

 

Now, about the A4/5/6/7/8? Will you find those boxes in a VW?

Edited June 18, 2013 by papilgee4evaeva

[RichardJensen]

I thought you were talking about the engines (also shared).

 

At best, Audi gets a platform (A4/5/6/8) and a pointless exotic to mess around with. And even there, I'm sure they have to pick parts from the VW bin for stuff that can't be seen (electronics, latches, etc.)

[papilgee4evaeva]

Such is life re: switchgear. I think all the companies that keep both a mainstream and luxury brand do it.

 

At any rate, the scalable platform strategy that VW and Audi have begun to employ (and that Nissan-Infiniti has been using for a while, honestly) sounds like a good idea. I could see Lincoln using the same strategy in the future once they're fully "back," whenever that is and whatever that entails.

Edited June 18, 2013 by papilgee4evaeva

[rmc523]

I thought you were talking about the engines (also shared).

 

At best, Audi gets a platform (A4/5/6/8) and a pointless exotic to mess around with. And even there, I'm sure they have to pick parts from the VW bin for stuff that can't be seen (electronics, latches, etc.)

 

Are they going to criticize Lamborghini for using Audi switchgear (look at the new Aventador)?

[Hugh]

Or Bentley for that matter. AFAIK, all of the above share components. I think the reason Lincoln gets dinged is because they are Lincoln Ipso Facto Ford-bashing. VW Group will get a pass. I feel Lincoln can have a dare I say it, compact sedan or hatchback. Using the same platform as the MKC (Escape/Focus/C-Max) I don't care.

[Edstock]

Now, about the A4/5/6/7/8? Will you find those boxes in a VW?

 

Yes, in the Phaeton.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Yes, in the Phaeton.

 

I thought they had canceled that model even overseas. A quick search showed that it's still kicking.

Edited June 19, 2013 by papilgee4evaeva

[jpd80]

For me Audi is a devilish mix of unique and shared components that deliver extraordinary profit levels to VW,

and backed up with styling and appeal that seems to be striking accord with global buyers.

 

Audi better not be a fad brand, VW has far too much financial commitment to survive without Audi's super profits.

Edited June 19, 2013 by jpd80

[Hugh]

http://jalopnik.com/the-ten-most-boring-car-companies-514009313

 

Lincoln made number 3 on the list where the same lame criticisms can be used for Toyota and VW.

 

 

One more thing, wasn't VW group suspected of cooking the books concerning AUDI?

Edited June 19, 2013 by Hugh

[BrewfanGRB]

The comment wasn't aimed at you but the general vibe that HP solves all problems.

 

the Reality of your fascination with the A4 is that it is closer in size the the MKZ than the A3.

L/W/H/WB

A4

185/71.9/56/110

3500lbs

$32k

 

A6

195/73/57/114

3700lbs

$42K

 

MKZ

194/73/83/112

3700lbs

$35K

 

An MKZ is serious 26" higher than an A6? That does not seem plausible. 83" is 6'11". I assume that should be...63"?

[2b2]

An MKZ is serious 26" higher than an A6? That does not seem plausible. 83" is 6'11". I assume that should be...63"?

 

according to my self-assembled database, the MKZ is 58.2" in ht.

[rmc523]

An MKZ is serious 26" higher than an A6? That does not seem plausible. 83" is 6'11". I assume that should be...63"?

 

according to my self-assembled database, the MKZ is 58.2" in ht.

 

You know, I noticed that and thought the MKZ might be higher than the other two, but didn't realize 83" was that tall haha.

 

Yes, according the Lincoln.com, the FWD MKZ is 58.2" high and the AWD and Hybrid MKZs are 58.1" high, so about an inch taller than the A6, and 2 inches taller than the A4