jpd80 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) And imagine if Ford and GM begin co development of hybrid and battery systems for their trucks and Utilities, that could explain why GM sold its interest in VM Motori and any desire to use the V6 diesel in the near future. Maybe Ford and GM can see a technology tipping point for diesel to gasoline hybrid coming in the next few years, committing to a diesel truck now may mean missing an opportunity to invest funding in something much better Edited February 6, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Chester, that needs to be edited....Too many want a diesel, but DONT want to pay for it but constantly bleat......for sure it will be interesting to see the take rate, and I would lay money on ford and GM watching those numbers like a hawk. Me, I really dont think it will account for too much, but having the option is a plus regardless.... How can anyone say that many want a diesel but don't want to "PAY" for it when the take rate in the F250 is 2-1 diesel at an added $8k. Heck, a gas 5.4 or 6.2 will town most any trailer, so why do so many opt for the diesel? Even if it is only a 1-5 take rate in an F150 that is a substantial amount of diesel engines being sold. You guys that don't have trucks keep tootin your horn about 2.7 ecoboosts etc. I bet this new Ram 1500 diesel will be a huge hit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 How can anyone say that many want a diesel but don't want to "PAY" for it when the take rate in the F250 is 2-1 diesel at an added $8k. Heck, a gas 5.4 or 6.2 will town most any trailer, so why do so many opt for the diesel? The F250 is a different story. The diesel drastically ups the tow rating in the F250. It doesn't in the Ram, and wouldn't in the F150. Plus, the real advantage of a diesel is for towing heavy. If you are towing heavy regularly, you need a 3/4+ ton, not a 1/2 ton. Plus, there is nothing that compares to the diesel in the Super Duties. The 6.2L is a great engine, but won't hold a candle to the 6.7L if you are towing big loads. You guys that don't have trucks keep tootin your horn about 2.7 ecoboosts etc. I bet this new Ram 1500 diesel will be a huge hit. I own a truck, and it's a diesel, and I'm still clamoring for the 2.7 EB. I think it's going to be a great engine, and will really prove why there is no need for a diesel in a half ton truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 How can anyone say that many want a diesel but don't want to "PAY" for it when the take rate in the F250 is 2-1 diesel at an added $8k. Heck, a gas 5.4 or 6.2 will town most any trailer, so why do so many opt for the diesel? Even if it is only a 1-5 take rate in an F150 that is a substantial amount of diesel engines being sold. You guys that don't have trucks keep tootin your horn about 2.7 ecoboosts etc. I bet this new Ram 1500 diesel will be a huge hit. You're correct...I don't own A truck; I own 4 trucks. I have a SuperDuty. It has a 6.8L gas engine. It has that gas engine because I calculated (in 2004) that I would have to drive the diesel truck 265,000 miles to break even. I pull a car trailer that typically weighs 7500-9500 lbs, so I didn't need a diesel. I also live 2 miles from where I work, so that is more suited to a gas engine than a diesel. I currently have 109,000 miles on my truck. 25 years is a hell of a long time to wait on that $6500 (in 2004) premium to be recouped. I also own a 2002 Kenworth T-600B. There was no gas option for this truck, and even if there was, I would have never considered it. This truck has 1,162,000 miles on it....all but 59 have been put on it by me. I think I know a thing or two about diesel engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Ford better get into the game, or get left behind. Too many want a diesel not to offer one. If Chrysler's reported estimated 10-15% take rate on the diesel is correct, that's still only 36K-55K trucks. The D37 and 6.2 should've accounted for roughly 76K units, if their estimated (combined) 10% take rate is in the ballpark, so that estimated diesel take rate is close to the number of 6.2 F150s Ford sold in 2013, and we already know that the 6.2 won't be back for the F150's 2015 MY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 The F250 is a different story. The diesel drastically ups the tow rating in the F250. It doesn't in the Ram, and wouldn't in the F150. Plus, the real advantage of a diesel is for towing heavy. If you are towing heavy regularly, you need a 3/4+ ton, not a 1/2 ton. Plus, there is nothing that compares to the diesel in the Super Duties. The 6.2L is a great engine, but won't hold a candle to the 6.7L if you are towing big loads. I own a truck, and it's a diesel, and I'm still clamoring for the 2.7 EB. I think it's going to be a great engine, and will really prove why there is no need for a diesel in a half ton truck. I would bet that 75% of all loads pulled by 3/4 ton trucks are under 10,000 pounds, and at least half never pull more than that ever. The tow capacities of these trucks are so far over what most people use them for, I would say it's a moot point. That said, sure their are some that do pull heavy weights. Fit 10-12 large cows in a stock trailer and you will know what a heavy moving load feels like. But most aren't using their trucks for this type of application, but still buying diesels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 You're correct...I don't own A truck; I own 4 trucks. I have a SuperDuty. It has a 6.8L gas engine. It has that gas engine because I calculated (in 2004) that I would have to drive the diesel truck 265,000 miles to break even. I pull a car trailer that typically weighs 7500-9500 lbs, so I didn't need a diesel. I also live 2 miles from where I work, so that is more suited to a gas engine than a diesel. I currently have 109,000 miles on my truck. 25 years is a hell of a long time to wait on that $6500 (in 2004) premium to be recouped. I also own a 2002 Kenworth T-600B. There was no gas option for this truck, and even if there was, I would have never considered it. This truck has 1,162,000 miles on it....all but 59 have been put on it by me. I think I know a thing or two about diesel engines. Not sure I get your point? Maybe it's because I hit a nerve about the 2.7 eco, but you all that are against a half ton diesel hit a nerve about not having a diesel in a half ton. To each their own, and as a consumer I want options, especially a Ford half ton diesel. And I truely beleive that Ford would sell enough to justify having one in their fleet (that could be used in other applications as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Not sure I get your point? Maybe it's because I hit a nerve about the 2.7 eco, but you all that are against a half ton diesel hit a nerve about not having a diesel in a half ton. To each their own, and as a consumer I want options, especially a Ford half ton diesel. And I truely beleive that Ford would sell enough to justify having one in their fleet (that could be used in other applications as well). First of all; you didn't hit a nerve...it's all good. Second; my point is that 1) I own trucks across the ranges (Ranger to Tractor). 2) The 1/2 ton market is totally different than the 3/4-1 ton market. 3) Ram is making a diesel, but I don't think the market will sustain sales. It's main purpose will be fuel mileage, and the 2.7L EB should be close. Once people who have no experience with a diesel figure out what required to operate & maintain them, they will return to gas trucks. I also seem to recall Chevy/GMC building a 5.7L diesel in the early 80's. Not very many were sold even before it was known that was a crap engine. I'll also bet that folks of my generation (late 40's) will think of that before dropping the bucks. The clusterf*ck known as the 5.7L diesel from GM is the #1 reason diesel cars don't do any better here than they do. I do realize this is 2014 and many things have changed...but many things have remained the same. Edited February 6, 2014 by 351cid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 How can anyone say that many want a diesel but don't want to "PAY" for it when the take rate in the F250 is 2-1 diesel at an added $8k. Heck, a gas 5.4 or 6.2 will town most any trailer, so why do so many opt for the diesel? Even if it is only a 1-5 take rate in an F150 that is a substantial amount of diesel engines being sold. You guys that don't have trucks keep tootin your horn about 2.7 ecoboosts etc. I bet this new Ram 1500 diesel will be a huge hit. retail sales of Superduties are trivial in comparison with the F-150...in fact we are lucky to move 5 Superduties a month, and thats reflective of most stores in So Cal.....Im not tootin the 2.7, but in my opinion, it will take a BIGGER chunk of the market that Ram AND Nisans 1/2 ton diesels COMBINED....thast said I beleive there IS a market for a diesel...but its NOT a large one...time will tell if Ford will dip its toes, but now someone has mentioned hybrid Im thinking superior alternatives may be being investigated.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 How can anyone say that many want a diesel but don't want to "PAY" for it when the take rate in the F250 is 2-1 diesel at an added $8k. Heck, a gas 5.4 or 6.2 will town most any trailer, so why do so many opt for the diesel? Even if it is only a 1-5 take rate in an F150 that is a substantial amount of diesel engines being sold. You guys that don't have trucks keep tootin your horn about 2.7 ecoboosts etc. I bet this new Ram 1500 diesel will be a huge hit. actually, I CAN say it, as I deal with the people purchasing said vehicles..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Lol indeed. I can just see diesel half tons picking up for the next 3-4 years (chevy, nissan, fiat/ram/dodge) and Ford's response being a 2.7 turbo with a hybrid? And the choir will say the complexities/cost of the diesels doesn't warrant it? Good times. Back to my original thought/link, it will probably make sense for Ford to continue to dominate/occupy as much of the light pickup market as they can over the next 5 years, including the clearly growing diesel powered section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 actually, I CAN say it, as I deal with the people purchasing said vehicles..... Yes, but that is in your own unique SoCal market, where Ford Flex's are popular. My local Ford dealer has a huge amount of Superduties, and doesn't even stock the Flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Back to my original thought/link, it will probably make sense for Ford to continue to dominate/occupy as much of the light pickup market as they can over the next 5 years, including the clearly growing diesel powered section. You do realize that the market is what SELLS, not what manufacturers decide to offer, right? To that, the diesel powered section of the half ton pickup market is not clearly growing. Sure, it will grow from 0 to something, but is that worth Ford jumping in on? What will it grow to? I think we can say that the GTDI powered section of the half ton market has grown a lot faster over the last 3 years, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 More players doesn't automatically mean it's growing or growing fast. Ford obviously believes more people want a gas or gas-hybrid engine than a small diesel. I'm going to trust they know more than you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Yes, but that is in your own unique SoCal market, where Ford Flex's are popular. My local Ford dealer has a huge amount of Superduties, and doesn't even stock the Flex. Well, it is the biggest market in the US, and lest I remind you, the more expensive the vehicle, the smaller the market......I doubt their Superduty numbers are setting the world on fire....diesel OR gas.....I mean, how many can actually afford a $60k plus truck?...its getting crazy I swear.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Well, it is the biggest market in the US, and lest I remind you, the more expensive the vehicle, the smaller the market......I doubt their Superduty numbers are setting the world on fire....diesel OR gas.....I mean, how many can actually afford a $60k plus truck?...its getting crazy I swear.. They must be selling OK, since Ford is upping production by 55k units.....2/3rds diesel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 The craziness is kind of my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) You guys that don't have trucks keep tootin your horn about 2.7 ecoboosts etc. I bet this new Ram 1500 diesel will be a huge hit. We're not saying there isn't a market for a diesel half ton, it's just that Ford sees better use of resources elsewhere. And I expect that Ford will sit pretty with EB 2.7 and stop/start claiming economy close to the 3.0 V6 diesel while giving more horsepower, something half ton buyers lap up. Ford has any number of diesel engines at its disposal but chooses Ecoboost - the question to be asking is why....the answer will be self evident. And I do drive diesel trucks too.... Edited February 7, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 They must be selling OK, since Ford is upping production by 55k units.....2/3rds diesel. which I dont understand in the slightest....perhaps they are purging stockpiles pre-empting BIG super duty changes???? The Superduties seem more fleet oriented sales number wise, Municipalities and the such, the 1/2 ton more Retail oriented.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 which I dont understand in the slightest....perhaps they are purging stockpiles pre-empting BIG super duty changes???? The Superduties seem more fleet oriented sales number wise, Municipalities and the such, the 1/2 ton more Retail oriented.. If you build Crew cab XLTs in F150 (3.5 EB and F250 6.2, they are both within a fly of each other in terms of price. So could we be seeing a plan by Ford to offer a few F250 6.2s to buyers while F150 is in short supply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Back to my original thought/link, it will probably make sense for Ford to continue to dominate/occupy as much of the light pickup market as they can over the next 5 years, including the clearly growing diesel powered section. The Ram diesel isn't even on sale yet (first sales should be end of month or next month). There's nothing clearly growing...we don't even know if it is going to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Again, Ford is going after the mass market in half tons. They are the market leader. The others are trying to grow their share of the market, and one way to try is to cover the niches. Covering niches can increase sales to a degree, but it can also increase costs which usually reduces profits. I have no doubt that the first year sales of the Ram diesel half ton will meet expectations, but after the diesel fans get theirs, will the incentives offered start to increase? I know that when the '15 F150s come out Ford will not be as deep into the incentives as Ram is now. And just imagine the incentives Ram will need then. Sure, covering niches is good, especially for the customers in those niches, but the mass market customer is what Ford is aiming for, because that is where the profit potential is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Nissan frontier diesel now on display in Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 which I dont understand in the slightest....perhaps they are purging stockpiles pre-empting BIG super duty changes???? The Superduties seem more fleet oriented sales number wise, Municipalities and the such, the 1/2 ton more Retail oriented.. Maybe Ford has data that there is going to be influx of buyers on the market because the avg age of the trucks is getting up there and need replacement? Or maybe as insurance as F-150 supply drops when the 2015 ramps up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Nissan frontier diesel now on display in Chicago. The other mfrs don't have suitable ecoboost like engines so diesel is a natural choice. But that doesn't mean they'll sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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