Ford getting back into F1?

[RichardJensen]

They couldn't keep Cosworth--they mortgaged their logo less than two years after selling Cosworth.

[ZanatWork]

Hopefully, they can have another long and happy relationship together. Cosworth helped further Ford's engine tech overall in the 90's, and probably before that.

Seeing "Ford/Cosworth" on cam covers in racecars has been a joy for much of my life, I'd like some more of that.

[BlackHorse]

Personally I'd rather see Ford get back into F1 than keep dumping money on NASCAR. I despise NASCAR, but that's me. What I would really love to see is for Ford to put together a couple of Mustang teams for the Trans Am Racing Series, especially after the 2015 model comes out. But either way, the Trans Am series is far more entertaining than watching a bunch of NASCAR junk. F1 would be a good way to push the Ecoboost name but I suspect the the motor actually used in the F1 cars would have very little in common with an actual factory Ecoboost motor. Richard is right about the fact that in this modern era the computer modeling eliminates much of the need for trial and error by way of race teams that was once the test bed or proving ground for future product development.

[ZanatWork]

Personally I'd rather see Ford get back into F1 than keep dumping money on NASCAR. I despise NASCAR, but that's me. What I would really love to see is for Ford to put together a couple of Mustang teams for the Trans Am Racing Series, especially after the 2015 model comes out. But either way, the Trans Am series is far more entertaining than watching a bunch of NASCAR junk. F1 would be a good way to push the Ecoboost name but I suspect the the motor actually used in the F1 cars would have very little in common with an actual factory Ecoboost motor. Richard is right about the fact that in this modern era the computer modeling eliminates much of the need for trial and error by way of race teams that was once the test bed or proving ground for future product development.

 

As Trans-Am likely can't pull the viewership in a season that NASCAR gets at a single Daytona race, it's a good thing they aren't following your advice. As for the F1 angle...people evolving specialty vehicles in high-stress competitive environments will find problems and solutions that won't occur in a typical office environment. It may have less value, but it certainly has enough value that BMW and Honda are looking to get back in...and they, along with Daimler, consider their steps very carefully.

[RichardJensen]

 

problems and solutions that won't occur in a typical office environment

 

Big gap between F1 and manufactured, warranteed products.

 

It's not as though Ford has suffered since they dropped F1.

[F250]

Translation:

Now that Ford has recovered and profitable they are looking for ways to waste money (resources) just like they used to.

 

This isn't 1964 NASCAR and NHRA have no connection to production cars and nothing learned on the track improves the Ford in the showroom. F-1 is high end Euro snob playground. Today racing doesn't improve the product rather big money from manufacturers improve race cars for marketing purposes only. Seems like a very limited return on the investment for bragging rights.

[theoldwizard]

I think they'll strictly be in engine/powertrain supply, not trying to do a full Stewart/Jaguar effort again.

Ford's last venture into F1 was only to infuse huge amounts of cash.

 

Ford R&D has nothing to do with "engineering" the car or powertrain except perhaps donate wind tunnel time (The Ford engine dynos can't handle the HP or RPM).

Edited April 16, 2014 by theoldwizard

[theoldwizard]

This isn't 1964 NASCAR and NHRA have no connection to production cars and nothing learned on the track improves the Ford in the showroom. F-1 is high end Euro snob playground.

A few years ago Ford pull most of it investment in NHRA because the "audience' just wasn't there.

 

Today racing doesn't improve the product rather big money from manufacturers improve race cars for marketing purposes only. Seems like a very limited return on the investment for bragging rights.

Ford's racing support ($M) is in "high exposure" areas. NASCAR, rally and sedan racing.

 

I sure wish NASCAR or someone would bring sedan racing to the US !

[jpd80]

F1 chews up wicked amounts of funding, the Euro marques are compelled to do it but I wonder if it really adds to their sales,

Pulling out would probably hurt their image, so it's probably safer to stay in...

 

The new V8 Supercars format lends itself to a Fusion/Mondeo with a 5.0 V8 for racing, just as is currently done with Volvo S60 for racing.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by jpd80

[akirby]

Ford's last venture into F1 was only to infuse huge amounts of cash.

 

Ford R&D has nothing to do with "engineering" the car or powertrain except perhaps donate wind tunnel time (The Ford engine dynos can't handle the HP or RPM).

 

I believe Ford had engineers working on the F1 team directly, like Hau Thai-Tang and that fed directly back to programs like the Lincoln LS and Mustang.

 

An avid car enthusiast, Thai-Tang was a race engineer for Nigel Mansell and Mario Andretti on Ford's Newman-Haas IndyCar team in 1993. His efforts contributed to six victories, eleven podium finishes, and the overall driver's and manufacturer's championships.

 

[BlackHorse]

 

As Trans-Am likely can't pull the viewership in a season that NASCAR gets at a single Daytona race, it's a good thing they aren't following your advice. As for the F1 angle...people evolving specialty vehicles in high-stress competitive environments will find problems and solutions that won't occur in a typical office environment. It may have less value, but it certainly has enough value that BMW and Honda are looking to get back in...and they, along with Daimler, consider their steps very carefully.

 

I have no illusions about the viewership issue but it doesn't change the fact that I find NASCAR to be just about the most boring thing on television. They should tell people with trouble sleeping to watch it as a substitute for ambien. I agree that Trans Am racing doesn't get the following and I suspect that much of that can be attributed to the fact that there is so much time between races while with NASCAR you can tune in every weekend and listen to that idiot say boogity boogity boogity. It's least common denominator television. Go fast, turn left, go fast, turn left, go fast, fall asleep. I like the road course nature of Trans Am and I like the fact that the cars involved are much closer in nature to the actual production cars than NASCAR ever will be. But trust me, I don't have any illusions about it replacing NASCAR as the most watched racing sport.

 

As for F1, I'm not at all sure that Ford would gain anything from it. It is even less popular than Trans Am Racing here in the states and it is very expensive to participate in. The potential gains just don't seem to be there especially in this day and age when it likely would contribute very little if anything to actual production car technology or development.

[Edstock]

As for F1, I'm not at all sure that Ford would gain anything from it. It is even less popular than Trans Am Racing here in the states and it is very expensive to participate in. The potential gains just don't seem to be there especially in this day and age when it likely would contribute very little if anything to actual production car technology or development.

 

I agree. BMW pulled out, and it doesn't seem to have affected them; Audi isn't in it either. For what it would cost to build a front-runner engine/transmission and/or the whole car, IMHO, spending the same on WRC for the small cars, and on competition Mustangs, considering the Mustang is now an international car, sold in the EU next year would have more direct marketing relevance. It will be interesting to see how fast the inevitable Shelby versions will be on the Autobahn, the big 3 German makes will be so pleased.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Edstock

[ZanatWork]

BMW is reportedly eyeing a return, and Honda's a known quantity. Cosworth has proven to be a good little engine-tech partner in the past.

I think it'd be a positive.

[akirby]

The only value I see is accelerating ecoboost R&D.

[Moosetang]

The marketing value is not insubstantial, given the sport's pretty good health in markets like the mideast, far east, south america, etc.

 

I think poo-pooing the cash burn is perfectly valid. But the last time Ford went it they were paying for a works team. It will not be nearly as bad if Ford limits their involvement to an engine program (or rather funding Cosworth's engine program), which so far seems to be what the rumors indicate.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Moosetang

[goinbroke2]

Well somethings up at Ford as they pulled funding for funnycar/PS and all the "big" boys and invested it in class racing. (stock/superstock) So, while overall viewership is down in dragracing (warranting less funding) the pennies on the dollar compared to what they dump into nascar was reduced even more to pennies on the dollar between FC and S/SS. In nascar they dump 10 million for example, in pro dragracing they dump 2 million and in sportsman dragracing they dump a hundred thousand.

The nascar fans are the "crash and burn" type of fan who only watch for the destruction. The FC fans watch partly for the fires/etc and partly for the 330mph runs. The sportsman fans watch either because they are family or they enjoy the racing of "carshow worthy" cars.

Obviously being generic, but the sportsman tow with ford/chev/dodge pickups and motorhomes, the pro's tow with f'liners as does nascar. If a guy is racing a stock/superstock ford you can damn well be sure he's towing with a ford and his wife drives a ford. In nascar? The driver drives whatever is sponsoring him at the time and that's where his loyalty ends.

 

I love the fact that the "little guys" are getting a shot in the arm considering they're the ones who are the die hard fans of Ford instead of the "pay me to say I like your brand..whatever it is" type of the pro's.

 

F-1 is even beyond nascar as far as I'm concerned. They could be racing horses, dogs, boats, whatever. They don't care, It's all about the snobbish arrogance. I had a meal in france when I lived in europe, it sucked, but the presentation was really fancy and it was a renowned fancy restaurant. I didn't say anything but the wife did. The waiter told her "her pallet must not appreciate their fine cuisine yet" or some such bullshit. Of course, it's not the restaurant, it's the customer who's wrong, gotcha you arrogant prick. (but I'm not bitter still LOL)

[lfeg]

There is some interesting tech in the new F1 rules. One is that there are two electric motor/generators on each powerplant. One coupled to engine output and one coupled to the turbocharger. The turbo m/g can drive the turbo when there is not enough exhaust flow for instant boost, and when full boost is not needed, the turbo m/g can generate electricity to charge the battery set or the power the engine m/g to add to output power. Things like this might relate to work on systems such as Ecoboost. Even though F1 is akin to a dog and pony show, the tech is getting interesting.

[coupe3w]

Here is a link to what lfeg is talking about.

 

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/8763.html

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

I don't follow f1 very closely, but enough to see that it is currently in a real mess. Promoters are threatening lawsuits over the new rules. Fans are in an uproar over fuel economy racing and quiet engines. The series owner is up on bribery charges. Mercedes is the only team with strong ties to a consumer car company doing well. Ford doesn't compete with Mercedes on any continent.

 

Indycar on the other hand seems perfect for re-entry. They have a new series sponsor in Verizon. Chevrolet is a major player. The racing has been good. New guys are getting established, and the schedule has expanded There is a real chance for recapturing some of what has been lost to NASCAR, and Fords involvement could be synergistic to the series and the manufacturer.

[coupe3w]

Indycar rules allows dual turbos. A perfect place to show off Ecoboost.

[Moosetang]

I like Indy a whole lot, I was born not far from the Brickyard, but Indycar's field is shrinking while F1's is growing. F1 just had one of its most exciting races in years on what's usually one of the most boring tracks on the circuit, while Indycar races not taking place in Indiana still struggle to get noticed. F1 has global reach, BMW is looking to get back in, Ferrari and Mercedes aren't going anywhere, and there's tons of money flowing through that sport. I'm sorry but F1 is healthier than Indycar today.

 

IMO, if Bernie goes to prison and control of the series is wrested from his hands it will be for the good of the sport overall, not just F1, but that's getting a bit off topic.

[coupe3w]

But Ford really doesn't compete against Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, (maybe a little with BMW) but not really. So what is the draw for doing so?

[AnimA]

Ford already has a dominant presence in the lower formulae. With merchandising already high, participation in F1 seems like a zero sum gain.

 

Am I the only one who would like to see Ford field a true successor to the GT40? After all, Endurance racing is dominated by marques that ford does compete with. It is also an excellent test of longevity for emerging tech and platforms.

[coupe3w]

Ford already has a dominant presence in the lower formulae. With merchandising already high, participation in F1 seems like a zero sum gain.

 

Am I the only one who would like to see Ford field a true successor to the GT40? After all, Endurance racing is dominated by marques that ford does compete with. It is also an excellent test of longevity for emerging tech and platforms.

I'm all for that. Ford GT with a 6.2 twin turbo Ecoboost.

[Moosetang]

If you think F1 is crazy money, you're not privy to the insane budget Audi has created to stay on top the LMP field. The good news is the DPs should be getting to Le Mans within the next few years, and Ford has their car: