jpd80 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I can see problems with that, convincing owners to return the cars for an emission related issue and convincing the EPA that there's no way to switch off the adblue supply outside of an official test cycle. How does VW prove that it's not cheating any more and that all systems work at all times, not jsut when it detects a test is about to start...verification of something outside test parameters? I wouldn't be surprised if the EPA didn't insist on full field validation data to support official test results what a sticky mess VW has created, now there's mistrust everywhere regarding everyone's data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I can see problems with that, convincing owners to return the cars for an emission related issue and convincing the EPA that there's no way to switch off the adblue supply outside of an official test cycle. If Facebook comments are any indication, many drivers won't be bringing their cars in. Can't say most, but definitely many. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 You enforce compliance by making VW liable for every vehicle that does not get retrofitted with the solution. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 You enforce compliance by making VW liable for every vehicle that does not get retrofitted with the solution. That won't faze owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 That won't faze owners. Depending on the state inspection, if you can pass that, you can't keep your registration...or even have law enforcement target those vehicles. Its not like they are one off or very small production cars. All depends on how they want to enforce it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 We already had that conversation. VM can't force it - only the state could force it by not renewing the registration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 The thing, though? The cars DO pass inspection because of the cheat code. That won't work. Even less so in areas where they don't conduct emissions testing. States would have to search the recall database to see which cars have been fixed and which haven't. There are possibly some legal hurdles to that, though. (Apologies if I'm rehashing any old arguments. I missed a few pages of comments.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 And again, most states that require emissions testing do so on gasoline vehicles only (Diesel cars are typically exempt). I believe the CARB states may do testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 You can't go by emissions testing even if they did it for diesels. It's simple - the state declares those vehicles illegal (which they are) and requires the owner to provide proof that the upgrade has been performed before they can be registered or renewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 You probably could if you did the old-fashioned probe in the tailpipe (Moon river) testing... But I don't see why states should have to spend anything on it. It's VWs bed to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 You probably could if you did the old-fashioned probe in the tailpipe (Moon river) testing... But I don't see why states should have to spend anything on it. It's VWs bed to make. How is VW going to force owners to apply the update? And you don't need to do any testing - you simply need to make the owners of affected vehicles show proof that the update was applied before they can get their tags renewed or register the vehicle. It could be as simple as a printed list of affected vehicles that they manually check. But that's the ONLY way to force it to be done. Why would states care? Same reason we have emission testing now in large cities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 That won't faze owners. It would force VW to pay owners to comply. There's no way that any owner should be expected to comply without compensation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 How is it any different than a government recall where the owner has to take their vehicle in for a free repair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 How is it any different than a government recall where the owner has to take their vehicle in for a free repair? Very few government recalls significantly impact your vehicle's fuel economy and driveability. VW owners who were first hand or even subsequnt victims of fraudulent activity by VW should be fully and fairly compensated for the losses that will accompany compliance with emissions laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 That's a separate issue. Some owners may not have it done even with compensation. The only way to force compliance is by not registering the vehicles or renewing the tags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 That's a separate issue. Some owners may not have it done even with compensation. The only way to force compliance is by not registering the vehicles or renewing the tags. I don't think it's at all separate. I think the two are directly connected. I think that the only way owners should get financial compensation (and you know they're getting compensation) is if they bring the vehicle in for the recall. I also think that money should be escrowed with the provision that if a particular owner opts not to have the recall performed, a subsequent owner may choose to have the recall performed in exchange for compensation, within a reasonable period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 I agree with all that. However, the question was how to force the vehicles to be upgraded so they are emissions compliant. The only way to force owners to do it is by not allowing the vehicle to be registered or renew tags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) I agree with all that. However, the question was how to force the vehicles to be upgraded so they are emissions compliant. The only way to force owners to do it is by not allowing the vehicle to be registered or renew tags. I guess my point is that if non-compliance is a civil matter, then you extract the fines from VW instead of the owners. Revising my initial choice of words, It's enforcing compliance with the full law, as in either VW pays to retrofit the cars or VW pays the civil penalties associated with noncompliance. Edited January 11, 2016 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 They are in bantha poodoo now..... http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/latestnews/2016/01/12/California-board-rejects-Volkswagens-diesel-fix-plan California board rejects Volkswagen's diesel fix plan The California Air Resources Board said on Tuesday it had rejected Volkswagen AG's plan to fix 2.0 liter diesel cars with software that allow them to emit up to 40 times legally allowable pollution. The state said VW's proposed fix was not adequate or fast enough, and that it would continue its investigation as well as talks with VW to find a fix. The state did not assess any immediate penalties, but it issued a new notice that VW had violated California air quality regulations. VW CEO Matthias Muller is meeting with Environmental Protection Agency chief Gina McCarthy on Wednesday to discuss the emissions scandal that impacts nearly 600,000 vehicles in the United States and up to 11 million vehicles worldwide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Silly VW, don't they realize that you have to actually capture the regulator before regulatory capture means anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 You can't go by emissions testing even if they did it for diesels. It's simple - the state declares those vehicles illegal (which they are) and requires the owner to provide proof that the upgrade has been performed before they can be registered or renewed. Yeah, this is definitely the best and most straightforward approach. The EPA approves the fix. VW validates those vehicles in which it's installed the fix. The biggest hurdle is that a lot of states don't really do ANYTHING right now in terms of registration beyond collecting the money. (For example, in WI, you send the money, you get the tags. Period. No proof of insurance, emissions testing, safety check, etc). I *think* in the southeast counties (Milwaukee and Racine...maybe Kenosha, Waukesha and Washington?) there might be an emissions test. I vaguely remember seeing something about that but I honestly can't remember. Regardless, given this is FitzWalkerstan, there's no way the state will care one iota about this anyway. Of course, ultimately the places where most of these cars actually are located are states that have a process in place to just add another requirement to registration renewal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I don't think it's at all separate. I think the two are directly connected. I think that the only way owners should get financial compensation (and you know they're getting compensation) is if they bring the vehicle in for the recall. I also think that money should be escrowed with the provision that if a particular owner opts not to have the recall performed, a subsequent owner may choose to have the recall performed in exchange for compensation, within a reasonable period. I get the feeling you're being purposely obtuse about Akirby's point here. I don't understand why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I guess my point is that if non-compliance is a civil matter, then you extract the fines from VW instead of the owners. Revising my initial choice of words, It's enforcing compliance with the full law, as in either VW pays to retrofit the cars or VW pays the civil penalties associated with noncompliance. That's not what the EPA wants. They want the cars to actually BE compliant, not just get paid for those that end up not being compliant. So again..it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with who gets paid what or who pays who. It's this: How do you PHYSICALLY get the cars compliant. Akirby's suggestion is the only viable way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) I made a thread a couple days ago about Ford, Mercedes and Renault getting involved in France with this, but it never caught on. This seems like a valid place to put it. The French government is investigating certain models from Ford, Mercedes-Benz, and Renault because they allegedly produce more nitrogen oxide than the country's pollution rules allow, according to Automotive News, citing a French newspaper. After VW's emissions scandal, French regulators began checking more vehicles for evidence of defeat devices and excessive real-world pollution. According to Automotive News, the Mercedes S350 allegedly showed inconsistent results across these tests, and a Ford C-Max had NOx levels five times over the limit. The Renault Capturcrossover, Espace, and an unnamed utility vehicle also had results that were too high. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/21/ford-mercedes-renault-french-emissions-investigation/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016 Edited January 25, 2016 by Intrepidatious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I made a thread a couple days ago about Ford, Mercedes and Renault getting involved in France with this, but it never caught on. This seems like a valid place to put it. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/21/ford-mercedes-renault-french-emissions-investigation/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016 Are these diesel-powered models, or gas? Or both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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