VW caught cheating on emissions

[Anthony]

 

Are these diesel-powered models, or gas? Or both?

 

 

Don't know, but Ford issued a statement: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20160117/ANE/160119754/renault-ford-and-mercedes-under-scrutiny-in-french-emissions-probe

 

Ford said all its vehicles and engines meet current French and European emissions regulations carried out in laboratories under legally mandated tests. "Unofficial on-road testing has varying conditions and can produce significantly different results," a Ford of Europe spokesman said.

 

Ford supports changes to the testing to better reflect real world conditions," the spokesman said. "Importantly, we do not have any so-called defeat devices in our vehicles."

 

[rmc523]

 

 

Don't know, but Ford issued a statement: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20160117/ANE/160119754/renault-ford-and-mercedes-under-scrutiny-in-french-emissions-probe

 

 

I was asking because if it's diesels, it'd (in theory) have less of an impact here if there were an issue.

[RichardJensen]

 

That's not what the EPA wants. They want the cars to actually BE compliant, not just get paid for those that end up not being compliant. So again..it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with who gets paid what or who pays who. It's this: How do you PHYSICALLY get the cars compliant. Akirby's suggestion is the only viable way.

 

The EPA lacks the tools necessary to enforce compliance directly, but the settlement negotiated with VW can make it financially beneficial for owners to comply and financially onerous for VW when vehicles are not compliant.

 

You cannot realistically amend the administrative or statutory law in dozens of states to address the specific nature of this recall fix.

[bzcat]

 

Are these diesel-powered models, or gas? Or both?

 

Definitely diesel

[rmc523]

 

Definitely diesel

 

That would make sense, but I guess you never know!

[RangerM]

This may have already been answered in these nineteen pages worth of posts, but what happens if the VWs just run in the "comply" mode all the time (as opposed to the cheat mode)?

Edited February 3, 2016 by RangerM

[theoldwizard]

The "comply" mode will still not comply enough to meet the standard. Remember, most diesel engines are current using DEF. Adding DEF would cost VW, 100s of millions.

[RichardJensen]

The "comply" mode will still not comply enough to meet the standard.

 

Yes it will. The whole point of that mode was to pass the test. It will just perform very poorly in terms of FE and (probably) acceleration.

Edited February 3, 2016 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

This may have already been answered in these nineteen pages worth of posts, but what happens if the VWs just run in the "comply" mode all the time (as opposed to the cheat mode)?

 

Well, that's the easy solution, but VW doesn't want it because it really impairs FE (see the EPA rated mileage for VW diesels) and, probably power output.

 

I suspect that they have been foot-dragging and stonewalling the Feds & state authorities because they want them to compromise and allow VW to implement a solution that is still not fully compliant.

[RangerM]

 

Well, that's the easy solution, but VW doesn't want it because it really impairs FE (see the EPA rated mileage for VW diesels) and, probably power output.

 

I suspect that they have been foot-dragging and stonewalling the Feds & state authorities because they want them to compromise and allow VW to implement a solution that is still not fully compliant.

Then I guess it's a calculated risk (on VW's part) that they'll get forgiveness from the Feds (for crappy emissions) before they get it from their consumers (for crappy FE).

[RichardJensen]

Then I guess it's a calculated risk (on VW's part) that they'll get forgiveness from the Feds (for crappy emissions) before they get it from their consumers (for crappy FE).

 

Not a smart calculation on their part. When you look at how aggressively the NHTSA has dinged GM, Chrysler and Toyota lately (not to mention the gigantic mortgage fraud settlements elsewhere), VW's not going to get off easily on this.

[silvrsvt]

Volkswagen Memos Suggest Company Misled U.S. Regulators

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/business/volkswagen-memos-suggest-emissions-problem-was-known-earlier.html

 

I hope the US government hammers them good....this is seriously screwed up.

[silvrsvt]

CARB: Full fix for VW diesels may not be possible

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/carb-full-fix-vw-diesels-may-not-be-possible#ixzz42bZVm8y6

[RichardJensen]

CARB: Full fix for VW diesels may not be possible

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/carb-full-fix-vw-diesels-may-not-be-possible#ixzz42bZVm8y6

 

Garbage.

 

If the vehicles passed the test, they can be programmed to be compliant all the time.

[silvrsvt]

 

Garbage.

 

If the vehicles passed the test, they can be programmed to be compliant all the time.

 

This was from CARB in January

 

The agency's reply elaborated its decision without specifying what kinds of technical changes the automaker had proposed, though its complete reply to the automaker contained documents which had not been made public on CARB's website. VW CEO Matthias Mueller has stated earlier this week that a possible technical solution could be new catalytic converters that could be fitted to a portion of the affected vehicles.

"First, VW fails to describe the nonconformities in sufficient detail for CARB to adequately understand them in the context of the recall plans, in order to determine whether the proposed fixes are feasible or would remedy each of the nonconformities," CARB stated in a public letter to VW. "Second, VW fails to specifically describe the fixes in its proposed recall plans in a manner that allows CARB to adequately evaluate whether they could be successful or are even technically feasible. Third, the proposed plans do not sufficiently address impacts on the engine, the vehicle's overall operation, and all related emission control technologies, including the OBD (On-Board Diagnostics) system."

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/carb-rejects-volkswagens-proposed-diesel-fix#ixzz42cHOMXiZ

[Ron W.]

CARB: Full fix for VW diesels may not be possible

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/carb-full-fix-vw-diesels-may-not-be-possible#ixzz42bZVm8y6

 

 

 

Garbage.

 

If the vehicles passed the test, they can be programmed to be compliant all the time.

 

I've spoken to a couple of owners about this and they don't want a fix, both said they like the way it runs and love the M.P.G they get.

One said he received a letter from VW about a buy back program, he said he threw it away.

This could get interesting.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I'm not scrolling back 20 pages, so I apologize if this has been posted. But I think someone in this thread mentioned states possibly flagging the registration of noncompliant cars. California and other CARB states may lead the charge on this one.

 

C&D

 

However, if Volkswagen does issue a recall, some states (particularly California and some that follow Partial Zero Emission Vehicle standards) may prevent owners from renewing their registration if they don’t complete the fix.

 

LA Times

 

Within six months after a dealer recall involving emissions, the Air Resource Boards's David Clegern said, the manufacturers must supply vehicle identification numbers for the vehicles that have not had their recall repairs completed, and follow up with monthly updates on compliance.

"These names are flagged by DMV and owners are not allowed to register their vehicle until the recall is performed," Clegern said.

The program, Clegern said, has been extremely effective, resulting in a 93% compliance rate.

The DMV issued a statement partly confirming the CARB position.

“If DMV is notified that a vehicle owner has not responded to a manufacturer’s emission recall notice, registration of the vehicle will be refused until a Proof of Correction Certificate is submitted," the agency said. "The Proof of Correction Certificate is obtained from an authorized dealership after the recall repairs are performed and must be submitted to DMV by the vehicle owner prior to receiving registration.”

[jpd80]

 

Garbage.

 

If the vehicles passed the test, they can be programmed to be compliant all the time.

I suspect that VW proposed what you suggested, to keep it in test mode all the time

but that doesn't address the excessive NOX discovered under light cruise...

 

Bottom line is that VW engineered to pass the test and didn't ensure the cars maintained

their emission profile all through the normal driving range - in particular when the diesel is

at its most fuel efficient and making the most NOX (light cruise)

Edited March 12, 2016 by jpd80

[akirby]

I'm not scrolling back 20 pages, so I apologize if this has been posted. But I think someone in this thread mentioned states possibly flagging the registration of noncompliant cars. California and other CARB states may lead the charge on this one.

 

C&D

 

 

LA Times

Exactly what I predicted.

[fordmantpw]

 

 

 

I've spoken to a couple of owners about this and they don't want a fix, both said they like the way it runs and love the M.P.G they get.

One said he received a letter from VW about a buy back program, he said he threw it away.

This could get interesting.

Who would want their car fixed? Why would you voluntarily give up fuel economy?

[mnblah]

Who would want their car fixed? Why would you voluntarily give up fuel economy?

My wife owned one of these in '09, I wouldn't sacrifice the mileage for emissions. When you compared these to the previous VW diesel they still ran cleaner. No one ever complained about the emissions of the older gen diesels. Those older gen diesels used to dirty up the rear bumper with soot and ran the same mileage, the newer gen one I had didn't have that issue.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Exactly what I predicted.

 

You're too modest, sir.

[RichardJensen]

Exactly what I predicted.

 

That's not exactly what you predicted. Those are regulations that are already on the books in one state. It is not a comprehensive fifty state solution to the question of compliance, especially in states like, for instance, South Dakota, Minnesota or Iowa that do not require an emissions certificate in order to renew registration.

 

There is no statutory mechanism for refusing to renew registration in many--probably well over half--the states in the US on the basis of an emissions test or the performance of a recall. And there is certainly no statutory authorization for the EPA to interfere in such.

Edited March 13, 2016 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

What a mess this is and now I can see why you've said previously that all the onus has to be on VW to make good

on compliance. neither the government nor VW can't force owners to return vehicles, they must coerce them with

incentives and if necessary buy backs so the necessary modifications can be carried out.

Edited March 13, 2016 by jpd80

[akirby]

That's not exactly what you predicted. Those are regulations that are already on the books in one state. It is not a comprehensive fifty state solution to the question of compliance, especially in states like, for instance, South Dakota, Minnesota or Iowa that do not require an emissions certificate in order to renew registration.

 

There is no statutory mechanism for refusing to renew registration in many--probably well over half--the states in the US on the basis of an emissions test or the performance of a recall. And there is certainly no statutory authorization for the EPA to interfere in such.

This isn't emissions testing and it's not about state laws. Federal law requires emissions compliance to be sold in the U.S. These vehicles do not meet those standards. States can choose not to register the vehicles without proof of compliance to federal law. I don't think they need a state law to enforce a federal law.

 

OTOH there is no federal law that forces states to deny registration, so it's up to the state whether they want to enforce it. And I did say California would be first in line to do that.

Edited March 13, 2016 by akirby