VW caught cheating on emissions

[92merc]

Oopps! NOX up to 40 times higher.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/autos/epa-cheating-vw/index.html

[bolt in blue]

Looks like an attempt to get Europe-like fuel economy and still meet the much stricter US emissions rules. Europe calculates emissions per distance traveled (so best way to do well is get really high economy - cars are usually sold advertizing grams of CO2 per km, for example). US calculates emissions per unit of fuel used (so best way to do well is burn really clean). It's why so many similar engines do much better in Europe, even if their testing standards are more optimistic than ours. Most of the same engines have a different tune.

[fordmantpw]

So THAT's how they get so much better fuel economy out of their diesels.

[bolt in blue]

No wonder GM's Cruze diesel offering seemed so pathetic in comparison and Mazda keeps delaying the Skyactiv-D for the US because they're not happy with its performance. It's easy to win when you cheat.

[jpd80]

It's long been suspected that VW and other euro car makers are "Gaming" the ECE fuel economy and emissions regulations

and that there's been much less advancement on NOX emissions than claimed by the manufacturers.

 

Could this be why Ford and GM were cautious about bringing their diesels to North America,

perhaps they knew the real cost properly validated EPA emissions and the comensurate

reduction in diesel fuel economy due to the more accurate results

[blwnsmoke]

 

 

The EPA said VW faces fines of up to $37,500 per vehicle for the violations -- a total of more than $18 billion. No final total was announced.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intentionally-violates-clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hpbt1

 

DAMN!!!!! Good for them lol.

 

I think they should get the max fine for every vehicle. This was deliberate fraud, not an accident or a defect.

 

I think this will be just the beginning as well because with the reflash to fix this, if it affects mpg which I truly believe it will, there will be many lawsuits out there due to the vehicles not getting the mpg stated.

Edited September 18, 2015 by blwnsmoke

[pictor]

People keeping comparing this Ford (Explorer tires), Toyota( acceleration) and GMI (ignition switch) issues, not the same thing at all. This is fraud at the highest reaches of a multinational, heads will role and VW's quest for work domination will take a hit.

[fordmantpw]

Are the emissions and EPA MPG tests done at the same time or separate?

 

If they are done at the same time, then the EPA rating should stay the same, as the car would be running in 'clean' mode during the test. This would mean that the EPA sticker ratings are in fact legit, and that would explain how many VW drivers exceed EPA ratings with their diesels.

 

However, if they are not run in conjunction, then the car would (likely) be running in 'dirty' mode during the EPA test, so the fuel economy would be much higher than the rating should be. This means they would also have to lower the EPA rating on the sticker of all of these cars, and lead to more issues.

 

At any rate, I hope they penalize the hell out of them since this is blatant fraud. Maybe the government can use this to get back all of the money they lost on the GM bailout.

[bzcat]

Are the emissions and EPA MPG tests done at the same time or separate?

 

If they are done at the same time, then the EPA rating should stay the same, as the car would be running in 'clean' mode during the test. This would mean that the EPA sticker ratings are in fact legit, and that would explain how many VW drivers exceed EPA ratings with their diesels.

 

However, if they are not run in conjunction, then the car would (likely) be running in 'dirty' mode during the EPA test, so the fuel economy would be much higher than the rating should be. This means they would also have to lower the EPA rating on the sticker of all of these cars, and lead to more issues.

 

At any rate, I hope they penalize the hell out of them since this is blatant fraud. Maybe the government can use this to get back all of the money they lost on the GM bailout.

 

The issue here is VW programmed a "test mode" whenever the car is on a roller for emission tests (probably with ABS sensors) so the EPA rating probably won't be revised because the "test mode" should be the EPA setting.

 

The problem is that the cars are running in non-complaint mode when not on a roller. They are generally exceeding EPA MPG numbers so if VW is forced to revise the ECU to run the car at "test mode" all the time, MPG will probably drop and be more in line with the window sticker. There must be a reason for VW to take this level of risk and outright break the law - it could be that running the car in "test mode" in compliance with EPA emission results in drivability or durability issues. Whatever it is, VW couldn't overcome the problem so they just decided to cheat.

 

Set aside the recall costs (I bet you they don't even know how to fix this), there will be a massive fine coming. And then, there is criminal liability... the Justice Department could open an investigation. And the EU authority are probably very interested in learning if VW similarly cheated in their EU6 emission.

[twintornados]

So much for "clean diesels"......

[akirby]

Biker16? Biker16?

[RichardJensen]

Wow. I just. Wow.

 

I guess, well, hat's off to the Germans for going to the time and effort of cheating in the most thorough manner possible.

 

All these years we've been talking about how difficult to dang near impossible it would be to program a 'cheat mode' for EPA tests, and blammo. They did it.

 

And, for the record, yes, emissions tests are done in conjunction with the fuel economy tests. Same test procedure, same bags, same assessment.

 

Also, to clarify another question, emissions in the US are quantified at the chimerical rate of grams per mile driven, structurally equivalent to grams per km.

[RichardJensen]

And you know what else?

 

This is going to destroy VW's car sales (slight exaggeration)

 

Know why?

 

Because every last one of those offending vehicles will have to be reprogrammed to run perpetually at the cheat setting. That means titanic losses in FE (and probably power) for VW owners everywhere, and no realistic hope of getting that mileage back. Think those people are going to buy another VW?

Edited September 19, 2015 by RichardJensen

[fordmantpw]

Set aside the recall costs (I bet you they don't even know how to fix this), there will be a massive fine coming. And then, there is criminal liability... the Justice Department could open an investigation. And the EU authority are probably very interested in learning if VW similarly cheated in their EU6 emission.

 

Fixing it should just be as easy as removing an 'if' statement in the code. The recall costs should be minimal. It's all the backlash that will cost them.

 

I wonder how many VW owners will take theirs in? I mean, if you know you are going to get a drop in fuel economy by taking your car in, would you do it? Is there a way they could prevent renewing licenses on the cars if they don't get the recall done?

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

Fixing it should just be as easy as removing an 'if' statement in the code. The recall costs should be minimal. It's all the backlash that will cost them.

 

I wonder how many VW owners will take theirs in? I mean, if you know you are going to get a drop in fuel economy by taking your car in, would you do it? Is there a way they could prevent renewing licenses on the cars if they don't get the recall done?

There are states ( don't know exactly which ones or how many) where passing an emissions test is a prerequisite to licensing or renewing a car.

[fordmantpw]

There are states ( don't know exactly which ones or how many) where passing an emissions test is a prerequisite to licensing or renewing a car.

 

Then the VW should have already failed, right? Unless the emissions tests aren't strict enough to catch that. ORRRRR, the VW knows it is being tested there too. If so, damn, this is getting deep!

[sullynd]

There are states ( don't know exactly which ones or how many) where passing an emissions test is a prerequisite to licensing or renewing a car.

Parts of Illinois have emissions testing (up here near Chicago) but diesel vehicles are exempt.

[Ron W.]

Love it.

 

Fine them and make every offending vehicle meet U.S. specs.

Don't understand why people would buy a V.W. anyway.

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

Then the VW should have already failed, right? Unless the emissions tests aren't strict enough to catch that. ORRRRR, the VW knows it is being tested there too. If so, damn, this is getting deep!

I believe the article said that is indeed happening. At least the one I read on detnews

[fordmantpw]

 

 

The cars, all built in the last seven years, include a device programmed to detect when they are undergoing official emissions testing, the EPA said, adding that the cars only turn on full emissions control systems during that testing. The controls are turned off during normal driving situations, the EPA said.

 

I read that to be the initial EPA test, but I bet you are right and they are faking it for yearly emissions tests as well. They would have too. Wow, that's crazy.

 

What I don't get, they said that the vehicles remain legal to sell. Does that include new ones? Because they should put a stop sale on all new VW diesels until the problem is rectified.

[RichardJensen]

I expect it would take a court action to declare that the vehicles could not be sold legally.

 

I would also expect that vehicles subject to emissions testing will not be passed unless the owner furnishes proof that the officially sanctioned fix has been implemented.

[fuzzymoomoo]

And you know what else?

 

This is going to destroy VW's car sales (slight exaggeration)

 

Know why?

 

Because every last one of those offending vehicles will have to be reprogrammed to run perpetually at the cheat setting. That means titanic losses in FE (and probably power) for VW owners everywhere, and no realistic hope of getting that mileage back. Think those people are going to buy another VW?

To go a step further, good luck getting anything out of it as a trade in too. If there's anything I've learned from the GM ignition switch debacle it's that even if it's taken care of, it KILLS any kind of value. My wife's G5 was worth about 5k a year ago, and even with the recalls done, and not many miles out on it in the last year, the most any dealer is willing to give us is 1800...

[jpd80]

 

The issue here is VW programmed a "test mode" whenever the car is on a roller for emission tests (probably with ABS sensors) so the EPA rating probably won't be revised because the "test mode" should be the EPA setting.

 

The problem is that the cars are running in non-complaint mode when not on a roller. They are generally exceeding EPA MPG numbers so if VW is forced to revise the ECU to run the car at "test mode" all the time, MPG will probably drop and be more in line with the window sticker. There must be a reason for VW to take this level of risk and outright break the law - it could be that running the car in "test mode" in compliance with EPA emission results in drivability or durability issues. Whatever it is, VW couldn't overcome the problem so they just decided to cheat.

 

Set aside the recall costs (I bet you they don't even know how to fix this), there will be a massive fine coming. And then, there is criminal liability... the Justice Department could open an investigation. And the EU authority are probably very interested in learning if VW similarly cheated in their EU6 emission.

Well explained.

Imagine if VW had spent time and resources on making the correct emission cycle work in regular day to day driving,

makes me wonder if the original version of the program was used for ECE tests and adapted to US EPA testing.

The difference being that US regulators do their own audits and test outside the emission test loops

for the very thing VW now stands accused of doing.

[RichardJensen]

You know what's going to make things go down hard w/VW?

 

This:

 

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2008/05/2009-jetta-tdis-mediocre-epa-rating-not-whole-story.html

 

"We take umbrage with the EPA cycle," said VW spokesman Keith Price. "But we never predicted that the numbers we've talked about would be the numbers the Jetta TDI would score in the EPA rating. We were talking about real-world driving, and in the real world the Jetta traditionally has overdelivered."

 

"despite the EPA figures, we believe the new Jetta [diesel] will certainly deliver 40 miles a gallon around town and in the 50s on the highway"

(emphasis added)

Edited September 19, 2015 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

You know what's going to make things go down hard w/VW?

 

This:

 

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2008/05/2009-jetta-tdis-mediocre-epa-rating-not-whole-story.html

 

(emphasis added)

A suspicious person would conclude from those statements that VW knew exactly what it was doing back then,

thumbing their nose at regulators, no wonder the cars overdelivered on econony, the emission modes were switched off...

 

Interesting though that a company that defrauds the government faces such a potentially massive fine

yet GM who perpetrated and covered up an ignition switch defect for so long, seems to gets off lightly..

Edited September 19, 2015 by jpd80