lfeg Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 DOJ had better be initiating a fraud investigation. And this has been done before - by the HD diesel engine manufacturers. They got nailed bad and one result was that they had to implement new standards several years before they were required. This is on a much larger scale than even the GM ignition switch issue (active plan to violate regulations, not sloppy design and then shove it under a rug). But wait - our congress will probably try to come up with some sort of "german exemption" again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted September 19, 2015 Author Share Posted September 19, 2015 VW should be forced to re-certify ALL vehicles sold in the US, including Audi. A third party must conduct the tests and VW pay for all testing. And of course a big ass FINE. Then continued scrutiny for another 5-8 years of all MPG and emissions testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) And you know what else? This is going to destroy VW's car sales (slight exaggeration) Know why? Because every last one of those offending vehicles will have to be reprogrammed to run perpetually at the cheat setting. That means titanic losses in FE (and probably power) for VW owners everywhere, and no realistic hope of getting that mileage back. Think those people are going to buy another VW? I thought I'd read the OBD was putting out (intentionally) incorrect data, when it detected the test was being conducted; NOT that it was altering the tune of the engine. Edited September 19, 2015 by RangerM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I thought I'd read the OBD was putting out (intentionally) incorrect data, when it detected the test was being conducted; NOT that it was altering the tune of the engine. Yeah, i'm still not clear on this either - I thought it was a different tune originally, but more recently read something about the OBD output. Either way, there must be a big reason for VW to have cheated like this, and if it's not fuel economy, then it's probably going to be reliability. It definitely explains a few things, biggest of all - why the internet clamours for diesels and nobody seems to bring them over other than VW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 VW is telling its U.S. Dealers to not sell what they have already on lots http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/foreign/2015/09/19/vw-us-dealers-halt-sales-diesel-cars/72488232/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 VW is telling its U.S. Dealers to not sell what they have already on lots http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/foreign/2015/09/19/vw-us-dealers-halt-sales-diesel-cars/72488232/ That is a 24-carat a-number-one steel-belted gen-you-ine admission of guilt right there. If VW KNEW there was no substance to these accusations, they would not order a stop-sale. Since there IS something to them, they know that EVERY sale adds to their fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) I thought I'd read the OBD was putting out (intentionally) incorrect data, when it detected the test was being conducted; NOT that it was altering the tune of the engine. EPA rating emission testing is based on actual emissions collected in huge bags. I don't know what OBD data is reported, but that could be for annual certification checks. Edited September 20, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Interesting though that a company that defrauds the government faces such a potentially massive fine yet GM who perpetrated and covered up an ignition switch defect for so long, seems to gets off lightly.. lese majeste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I wonder if VW's accounting department has a similar "defeat device" software program... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 That is a 24-carat a-number-one steel-belted gen-you-ine admission of guilt right there. If VW KNEW there was no substance to these accusations, they would not order a stop-sale. Since there IS something to them, they know that EVERY sale adds to their fine. And if the EPA was smart here, they would approach the EU and say, "this is jeopardizing reciprocal recognition of emission standards, please audit VW diesel records and confirm the validity of all submitted data.". The EU is joke, it simply shallow audits to find nothing wrong with supplied data and then rubber stamps those results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Volkswagen finally got pinched. It is not news that they have been cheating, most all the VW tuners know Volkswagen has been cheating with this for years. But that they finally got caught. What VW did was increase the EGR output when the OBD was plugged in therefore reducing the NOX output. When off testing the EGR output was lowered. This is quickly verified by tail pipe testing with the OBD hooked up and then when it is not. Naturally reducing the EGR flow is going to give you jump in F/E and power. They did not cheat on the emissions equipment but cheated on the programming. The fall out form this is going be huge for VW. VW is not the first to have cheated on emission testing and likely wont be the last. Just about everybody Ford GM AMC Chryco Honda Yota etc etc got nicked at some point and time, mostly in the 70's. Just now the legislation really has some teeth to it and it is not just slap on the wrist like it used to be. Most were nailed cause they had "specially prepped" vehicles for EPA testing. After that fiasco the EPA started to pull random production vehicles to verify what was originally supplied by the manufacturer. I imagine we are going to see a bunch of legal wrangling here similar to what Cat did when they got busted. I can see VW claiming it was an accidently missed line of code that was not deleted after power train development. That will likly be their claim to try to mitigate the "intentional" aspect of it. Unfortunately it will be on the EPA to prove it was intentional and not just an error. They will have to look at the programming in EU spec ECU's to see if their is a similar "anomaly". I know and we all know VW has been cheating but the tough bit will to prove it was intentional, and with the U.S legal system this is not going to happen any time soon. Why did VW cheat, It is not some big conspiracy it was simply to reduce deposits in the intake, the better power and F/E was just a bonus from it. Intake coking is something EGR VW diesels have always suffered from. Lots of back yard how to videos on You Tube for cleaning earlier VW diesel intakes, Lowering the EGR cycle reduced the rate at which deposits form but it also drastically increases NOX. The reduction in carbon deposits would mitigate warranty issues, drivability issues, and reliability issues (not sure how it can get much worse it is VW) And really this was a stupid ass thing to do since the real fix would have cost them about $20 (if that) a vehicle and that is to pull the EGR feed post DPF once all the soot has been dealt with just like other manufactures are now doing. Intake and intake valve coking (carbon deposits) are going to be an issue for many manufactures. DI gasoline engines have this issue. And it is cropping up in the Eco Boost line of engines. The fix is simple for DI gasoline engines and has been in use by various manufactures for about a decade now, Ford neglected to add it to the Eco Boost line, as it is not a cheap fix but it solves the issues of intake valve coking once and for all. It requires the addition of a small secondary port mounted fuel injectors that wash the back of the intake valve and stop the carbon build up. Several manufactures are doing this on their DI gasoline engines. Every one knows this intake valve deposits are an issue with direct injection gas engines and has so for over a decade now. I'm disappointed Ford did nothing to mitigate this issue in the Eco Boost engines and then claimed ignorance when the associated drivability problems that arise from it cropped up. Part of the reason I think the Ford power train engineers as of late are muppets as they are either negligent or stupid, to not address this most basic inherent gasoline DI issue in any manner at all with either auxiliary injectors or an intake service interval. Regardless VW deserves to have their ass handed to them. And really not so much for cheating as everyone has done it (and some still are, VW won't be the last ones busted) , but for being so fricken stupid in the first place. Matthew Edited September 20, 2015 by matthewq4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Why did VW cheat, It is not some big conspiracy it was simply to reduce deposits in the intake If they only cheated to avoid warranty claims then they are even stupider than I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I wonder if VW's accounting department has a similar "defeat device" software program... It is amazing that all these years of billions of dollars of "profits" haven't given VW a gigantic cash hoard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Volkswagen admits tampering of exhaust tests in the US. CEO Martin Winterkorn has announced a full investigation of the allegations against Volkswagen in the United States. VW CEO Martin Winterkorn: "Personally, I deeply regret that we have disappointed the trust of our customers and the public" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Does a decision like that belong to the VWNA head though? That seems like an awfully big risk that guy would be taking for it to not come from the top? Or maybe I'm the only one that thinks that? EDIT: I'm basing my comments on the exerpt MKII posted.......I couldn't read the linked article, as the link in your post is broken Edited September 20, 2015 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Does a decision like that belong to the VWNA head though? That seems like an awfully big risk that guy would be taking for it to not come from the top? Or maybe I'm the only one that thinks that? EDIT: I'm basing my comments on the exerpt MKII posted.......I couldn't read the linked article, as the link in your post is broken The article is in German http://www.motor-talk.de/news/volkswagen-raeumt-manipulationen-von-abgastests-in-den-usa-ein-t5441425.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Oh haha. That'd explain it then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Does a decision like that belong to the VWNA head though? That seems like an awfully big risk that guy would be taking for it to not come from the top? Or maybe I'm the only one that thinks that? In my experience a course of action of a large operation requires oversight at least or approval. This looks like VWNA is getting thrown under the bus. You probably can't prove it but nonetheless, I find it difficult to believe that the head shed had no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 In my experience a course of action of a large operation requires oversight at least or approval. This looks like VWNA is getting thrown under the bus. You probably can't prove it but nonetheless, I find it difficult to believe that the head shed had no idea. Yeah that's what I'm saying. Imagine if it comes out they're doing the same in Europe... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Yeah that's what I'm saying. Imagine if it comes out they're doing the same in Europe... Oh yes, I'm agreeing with you. I also think this may be a tough case to prove and that could take a while to finish (if at all). IF this blows up in their faces, it make the GM ignition switch and the Ford 'fire sale' seem petty. If this turns out and I'm a little rhetoric here, it's one for the history books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Whoa. Around 15 billion euros ($16.9 billion) was wiped off the market value of Volkswagen AG on Monday following revelations that the German carmaker rigged U.S. emissions tests for about 500,000 diesel cars. By early afternoon trading in Frankfurt, Volkswagen’s share price was down a stunning 19.4 percent at near three-year low of 130.20 euros. Its dramatic fall weighed heavily on Germany’s main stock index, the DAX, which underperformed its peers in Europe with a 0.6 percent decline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Whoa. Just came to post that.. couldn't believe it when I read it this morning. Boy that has got to hurt!! Wonder what will happen in the upcoming days. Didn't include a quote so I'll link one that talks about it. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-stock-crashes-admitting-rigged-us-emission-tests-081423265.html Edited September 21, 2015 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I've been checking it every half hour or so....already down another percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Wow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I wonder how long it will take for a couple of lawyers to get a class action suit going for owners whose cars are now worth less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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