Focus Electric gets fast DC charger

[mackinaw]

I don't know enough about the batteries used in a hybrid or an electric vehicle to comment. But I do know that if I leave my cell phone in my truck overnight, in the winter, it's dead as a doornail the next morning.

[4d4evr-1]

 

That’s an excellent question. It seems all these 200 mile+ range figures we keep reading about are for when it’s 75 F degrees outside. Every state in the U.S. can get below freezing in the winter and a majority can get below zero. We had -34 F at our house once last winter. The high temperature for that day was -8 F. What would an electric car’s range be at those temps?

 

And yes, my old 1994 F-150 started up and ran perfectly well in that kind of weather.

but you are forgetting the most important aspect, global warming...

the real question is in 5 years, will heat hurt the efficiency of the batteries

[mustang_sallad]

Keep in mind that a massive EV battery has a lot of thermal inertia - it takes a long time to cool down. If you're driving and charging regularly, the battery temperature shouldn't be too much of a problem. But yes, if you leave it outside, not charging for 24 hours or more, the battery temperature will tend towards the average daily temperature.

 

For the same reason, even when driving it, the low amount of heat generated internally in the battery takes a while to heat it up. Best thing is to keep it plugged in when it's cold out.

 

The main reason people see reduced range during the winter is the heater. Even the more efficient heat pumps used in some models pull a solid 1.5kW. More like 3 to 5kW for regular heaters. Whenever I drive an EV, i use heated seats and steering wheel as much as possible and keep the cabin heater off if I can.

[mackinaw]

.......Whenever I drive an EV, i use heated seats and steering wheel as much as possible and keep the cabin heater off if I can.

 

What you’re describing is why I’m skeptical that battery vehicles will catch on with the general public, at least in the near term. A person shouldn’t have to go through all these gyrations just to stay warm. In an ICE vehicle, if you want it to be 80 degrees inside, just crank up the heat.

I admit to being very intrigued by electric vehicles, but I also think they’re not yet ready for prime time.

[RichardJensen]

 

Interesting - I just looked that up because I was sure that Hawaii had never been below freezing, but it had (15 degrees F in 1931).

 

Mauna Kea---there are rivers on the big island that are fed by snowmelt.

[RichardJensen]

 

Or get an electric blanket, plug it in to the accessory outlet and wrap it around the battery? The current draw would heat up the battery and the electricity would add more heat to the battery instead of being wasted.

 

That's how my perpetual motion machine works.

[RichardJensen]

My big thing is that 30 minutes to an 80% charge is just not fast by any useful modern consumer understanding of the term.

 

I mean, we, collectively, prefer to eat something as inherently messy as a hamburger while navigating traffic rather than stopping our other activities to eat. I just don't see that mentality being particularly conducive to a 30 minute wait to charge a car.

[akirby]

But it's a big jump from 4 hours.

[jpd80]

My big thing is that 30 minutes to an 80% charge is just not fast by any useful modern consumer understanding of the term.

 

I mean, we, collectively, prefer to eat something as inherently messy as a hamburger while navigating traffic rather than stopping our other activities to eat. I just don't see that mentality being particularly conducive to a 30 minute wait to charge a car.

It works if you have to wait 30 minutes for the Hamburger..

[RichardJensen]

But it's a big jump from 4 hours.

 

from "Oh, man, I can't live with that" to "Yeaaaaaaaaaah, that's not going to work for me."

 

I'm in favor of a universal "quick change" system.

Edited December 16, 2015 by RichardJensen

[sullynd]

I can't stand propane exchanges (Why would I want someone else's crappy propane tank back) I can't imagine ever wanting someone else's battery (Oops, sorry, you got the one that hit road debris, and your car is now figuratively toast!).

 

30 minutes is a great jump, and should be an incentive to install such chargers at restaurants and other retail outlets. You could see someone like CostCo or Target installing them as an incentive. The big issue is that there are still competing connectors. Unfortunately I believe Ford has hitched itself to the less common, but also less proprietary, connector.

[fordmantpw]

I can't stand propane exchanges (Why would I want someone else's crappy propane tank back)

 

I thought that I was the only one like that! That's why I get ours filled.

[akirby]

 

I thought that I was the only one like that! That's why I get ours filled.

 

Before I converted to a natural gas connection I would NEVER do a tank exchange.

[probowler]

Another way to look at this is... 40% in 15 minutes, not too bad at all.

 

It's certainly enough for a quick top off to get you back home... I certainly doubt people are going to drive 50+ miles for a 10-minute stop to buy fast food or quick errand... and these cars are not for you if that's the case. Normally speaking, you should have enough time to get a decent charge.

 

Technology is improving, now they need to work on the charging stations.

[RichardJensen]

I can't imagine ever wanting someone else's battery (Oops, sorry, you got the one that hit road debris, and your car is now figuratively toast!).

 

The idea is that the car owner doesn't handle the batteries, a tech does. And the batteries wouldn't be in a position where they could easily be damaged by road debris in any case.

 

And the problem I see with these quick chargers is that eventually people are going to have to pay to use them, unless EVs remain super niche such that the cost of electricity required to charge Stan & Sally Do-gooder's Leaf is minuscule compared to the cost of operating the main business.

 

With a battery exchange you expect to pay, after all, someone's replacing *your* battery.

 

Of course, that's not the way the industry's going, and IMO, it's not headed in a direction that's either practical (30 minute wait = FAST!!!!!), or sustainable ("I drive an EV. You *owe* me free electricity because *I* am saving the environment!")

[akirby]

But the point remains that I might swap out my perfectly good factory battery for someone else's bad battery. I guess if you're swapping them out every 200 miles it won't be a huge issue and I assume they would test them before installing them - but there would be significant cost in seeding the spares to get started and to replace bad batteries along the way.

 

Maybe we need something that can be charged faster (< 15 minutes) but also discharges faster than a regular battery.

[bzcat]

The range and charge time is getting to a point where if you just plug it in at night, you would never have to worry about it for the next two days of commute.

[transitman]

The main reason people see reduced range during the winter is the heater. Even the more efficient heat pumps used in some models pull a solid 1.5kW. More like 3 to 5kW for regular heaters. Whenever I drive an EV, i use heated seats and steering wheel as much as possible and keep the cabin heater off if I can.

Once again, that's why a PHEV is the better option in colder climates. In the winter, I drive using the ICE until the temp gauge is above the MIN line, usually about 4-5 miles, then switch to EV. The ICE does the heavy lifting getting the coolant to temp and the PTC heater can take over after that. It obviously takes more energy to heat the coolant than keep it warm.

[RichardJensen]

But the point remains that I might swap out my perfectly good factory battery for someone else's bad battery. I guess if you're swapping them out every 200 miles it won't be a huge issue and I assume they would test them before installing them - but there would be significant cost in seeding the spares to get started and to replace bad batteries along the way.

 

Maybe we need something that can be charged faster (< 15 minutes) but also discharges faster than a regular battery.

 

I can't imagine that the setup costs would be significantly higher than underground tanks, pumps, etc. I mean, it'd be more like inventory for a store than infrastructure. Like if you need 4 hours for a charge, you'd need to have four hours worth of swaps on hand at all times. Also, since the batteries would be modular, you could opt to swap only two or three modules instead of the full set if you were either in a hurry or you didn't want to pay for a full swap since you'd be home soon.

 

What you'd need is a standardized design and a 'quick access' mechanism that wouldn't, say, require emptying the entire trunk to get at the access panel.

[transitman]

I don't know if the Tesla pilot program is still in affect, or if Better Place got off the ground, but the concept of battery exchange isn't new. The catch is, the vehicle has to be designed to easily exchange batteries.

https://www.edf.org/energy/innovation/electric-vehicle-innovation

http://inhabitat.com/tesla-launches-battery-swap-program-that-only-needs-3-minutes-for-a-full-charge/

[RichardJensen]

Yeah, I know I'm kind of off in an 'alternate universe' scenario with my quick exchange idea.

[akirby]

It's a great idea - just not practical to implement yet.

[mustang_sallad]

yeah, not going to happen. If we're struggling to get everyone to agree on a standard fast charge port, imagine what it would take to standardize something as massive as a battery. Tesla could have done it, because they clearly couldn't give a #$#$ about standardizing and sharing batteries with other types of cars, but they still found it wasn't worth the effort. They put a price tag on the swap - about equivalent to a full tank of gas. At that price - would you rather get a full charge for $50? Or get a full charge for 5-10$ (the going rate at the fast charge stations that are starting to charge a fee) and spend 30 mins screwing around on your smart phone? Especially given that - unlike fueling up a regular car about once a week - you start your day out with a full charge every morning, and fast charging is something that you only need to do once in a while.

All that said, I do agree that it needs to be faster. 50kW fast charging (Leaf, i3, presumably the 2017 focus) on a 24kWh or 30kWh battery works out to:

1. Drive 60 miles

2. Charge for 30 minutes.

3. Repeat.

... definitely tedious, but at least workable on occasion for those who are really committed to the idea, or only go on short trips.

 

Tesla is charging at 120kW:

1. Drive ~150 miles (or more for the first cycle if you're starting with a full charge)

2. Charge 30 minutes

3. Repeat

... that's a lot better. Audi came out and said they will deploy a network of 150kW chargers, so maybe a bit quicker. I think that'll be fine for a lot of people - again, keeping in mind that for your daily commute, charging at home is even more convenient than driving a gas car and having to detour to a gas station once a week.

 

But some people (Ford, Porsche) have been talking about stepping charging up to 200kW (Ford) or even 300kW (Porsche, using 800VDC). That's when you really start to approach zero compromise charging. It may never be down to a 3 minute refill, but the fact that you can walk into the store while it's charging rather than holding the pump for the whole process means it's more agreeable overall.

[mustang_sallad]

 

What you’re describing is why I’m skeptical that battery vehicles will catch on with the general public, at least in the near term. A person shouldn’t have to go through all these gyrations just to stay warm. In an ICE vehicle, if you want it to be 80 degrees inside, just crank up the heat.

I admit to being very intrigued by electric vehicles, but I also think they’re not yet ready for prime time.

 

Totally agree - and that's why I'm getting a Volt instead of a pure EV. I might be happy to jump through a few hoops to drive a pure EV, but I'm also keen to show everyone around me how you can have the best of both worlds without any compromises (except maybe the fact that I can only take 3 people with me...)

[RichardJensen]

as massive as a battery

 

You wouldn't standardize the entire battery, you'd standardize battery modules.

 

And the cost shouldn't be "about equal to a tank of gas" it should be electricity+labor+overhead+profit. So maybe it'd be twice the cost of a sit-around-for-half-an-hour charge, but it'd be done in, say, 5-10 minutes instead, 100% charge.