Why the Detroit Three should merge their engine operations

[fordmantpw]

 

 

The Detroit Three should seriously consider merging their powertrain operations, even though that's a sacrilege in an industry that still considers the engine the "heart" of the car. These automakers have built up considerable brand equity in some of their engines. But the vast majority of American car buyers could not tell you what kind of engine they have under the hood.

 

Interesting point for discussion. GM and Ford already collaborate on transmissions, and likely 99% of buyers don't have a clue. Many diesel engines are already outsourced, so will more engines be outsourced in the future? It makes sense in some aspects, but does the cost of integrating a third-party engine along with the cost of purchasing said engine outweigh the costs to develop your own, with your own specs, controls, testing, etc.? With tighter emissions and fuel economy standards, maybe this is a viable option going forward.

 

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/12/21/detroit-three-merge-engine-operations-opinion/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016

[Edstock]

And with a reverse gear, maybe this is a viable option going backward, too.

 

Slow news day.

[silvrsvt]

What happens if this shared design engine has a defect that affects all the models...instead of having say 200K cars that need to be recalled, you could quite possibly have millions instead!

 

Interesting subject, but given that the engine is truly how car companies set themselves apart from one another, I don't see it happening outside of shared Hybrid and transmission designs.

[fordmantpw]

What happens if this shared design engine has a defect that affects all the models...instead of having say 200K cars that need to be recalled, you could quite possibly have millions instead!

 

The thought is that the engine would have fewer issues since it would be tested much more thoroughly, and by many more parties.

 

 

Interesting subject, but given that the engine is truly how car companies set themselves apart from one another, I don't see it happening outside of shared Hybrid and transmission designs.

 

Agreed, but once companies see it can work with hybrids, will they venture into sharing traditional ICEs? I see FCA as having the most to gain in this area, with Ford having the most to lose with everything they have poured into EcoBoost in the last 10 years.

[rmc523]

 

The thought is that the engine would have fewer issues since it would be tested much more thoroughly, and by many more parties.

 

 

 

Agreed, but once companies see it can work with hybrids, will they venture into sharing traditional ICEs? I see FCA as having the most to gain in this area, with Ford having the most to lose with everything they have poured into EcoBoost in the last 10 years.

 

But would it really be tested more thoroughly by more parties? Or would it more or less become that each manufacturer is responsible for a certain part of the "combined-effort" powertrain....i.e. Ford builds the engine, GM the transmission, Chryco the exhaust?

 

Under the proposed scenario, what benefit would the companies have to retain their entire current powertrain design workforce if it's a collaboration between the companies? In other words, I don't see it being that more parties would review the singular design they come up with....you wouldn't need to if you're only doing 1/3 of the work, no? And even if they did, they'd be smaller than today since they wouldn't be responsible for as much of the powertrain development as before. At least in my mind.

[rmc523]

double post.

Edited December 22, 2015 by rmc523

[fordmantpw]

 

But would it really be tested more thoroughly by more parties? Or would it more or less become that each manufacturer is responsible for a certain part of the "combined-effort" powertrain....i.e. Ford builds the engine, GM the transmission, Chryco the exhaust?

 

Under the proposed scenario, what benefit would the companies have to retain their entire current powertrain design workforce if it's a collaboration between the companies? In other words, I don't see it being that more parties would review the singular design they come up with....you wouldn't need to if you're only doing 1/3 of the work, no? And even if they did, they'd be smaller than today since they wouldn't be responsible for as much of the powertrain development as before. At least in my mind.

 

I'm thinking along the lines of members from each automaker working together to design the engine. It will be completely vetted and tested to the specs of the worst case scenario of group. Then, when integrating those engines into each vehicle line, it will be tested again (not as thoroughly, mind you, but for the purpose of that vehicle's individual testing) when the car goes through the mule and prototype phases. Changes can bubble back up to the top.

 

I'm not saying it should be done, it just makes for interesting discussion.

[RichardJensen]

I don't think this is going to happen.

 

Yes, vehicle OWNERS can't tell you much about their car's engine, but everything from FE to NVH to performance is dictated in no small part by the engine.

 

Further, I question the likelihood of significant savings given that manufacturers would like to share as little as possible, dressing the engines at their own factories and to their own specs.

 

Additionally, I expect that the cost of an engine's design is a very small part of the overall engine's cost, with much of it being parts & labor. I don't know that you'd see significant parts savings, and the labor would be the same, more or less.

Edited December 22, 2015 by RichardJensen

[bzcat]

You can make a case out of Ford and GM (or even with FCA) working together on the basic block of the engine. And each then go on designing its own version of the engine and specific application - e.g. like Ford and Mazda used to do, or how Mercedes and Nissan are doing it now, or how Hyundai, Mitsubishi and FCA did it with their I4 engines.

 

But using identical engines (e.g. 3.5 Ecoboost) in Ford and Chevy vehicles is probably a bridge too far for the companies themselves and their customers.

 

For example, Mitsubishi Evo, Hyundai Elantra and Dodge Caliber all used the same engine family but the engines end up being very different in how each company made it for the specific application. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Engine_Alliance

[coupe3w]

There are plenty of Chevy LS engines running around in various Fords already especially Mustangs.

[fordmantpw]

Additionally, I expect that the cost of an engine's design is a very small part of the overall engine's cost, with much of it being parts & labor. I don't know that you'd see significant parts savings, and the labor would be the same, more or less.

 

That was my thought as well. The cost savings just wouldn't be that great.

[fordmantpw]

There are plenty of Chevy LS engines running around in various Fords already especially Mustangs.

 

May as well do something with the engines since the cars rotted away after only a handful of miles.

[aneekr]

It makes sense in some aspects, but does the cost of integrating a third-party engine along with the cost of purchasing said engine outweigh the costs to develop your own, with your own specs, controls, testing, etc.?

 

Excellent point, fordmantpw. One reason that Volvo Cars developed its new Drive-E engine family in-house is because adaptation of Ford designed engines was actually quite costly. Wards Auto mentions this interesting anecdote:

 

 

"While Ford was still in control prior to 2010, Volvo powertrain executives had spent several months building a case for engines unique to its brand, instead of those that had been designed and built by Ford.

“We suddenly realized we’re spending a fortune adapting Ford engines to our vehicles – unique fuel tanks, unique software,” Derek Crabb, Volvo’s senior advisor and former vice president-powertrain engineering, tells WardsAuto in an interview here.

“We turned that business case around and said, ‘What if we did our own engines?’ The business case was so obvious,” he says, referring also to benefits for Ford. “We also were disturbing Ford’s manufacturing processes” by demanding certain features for engines headed to Volvo.

Without knowing Ford was in advanced talks with a suitor for Volvo, Crabb and his team took the matter straight to Ford’s top decision maker.

“We actually went to (CEO) Alan Mulally eventually and said the business case shows Volvo should develop its own engines,” Crabb recalls. “At that point, he said ‘I agree, but by the way there is a sale process going on. Can you go talk to Geely?'

[RichardJensen]

And that right there is why Ford offloaded Volvo. It was easier to cash out than to force them to stop insisting on doing things their own way.

 

BTW: How dense do you have to be to insist that your company, which is not independently viable, should be able to make its own decisions about everything?

[Edstock]

Well, now Volvo pays for its own unique gas tanks and its own unique software for its in-house designed engines. Just the way it should be. Unique is good.

[fordmantpw]

WTH...why on earth would they need unique fuel tanks?

[RichardJensen]

And why would a unique fuel tank affect the engine?

But these are the insistences that you expect from a company that has not come to terms with its own flawed way of doing business.

 

And, BTW, Mulally just went up another few points in my retroactive assessment for keeping those execs in the dark about the sale of the company. You can tell by the way they described their work and their needs that they were card carrying members of the Just Don't Get It club, and that Mulally would be wasting his time talking to them.

[coupe3w]

 

May as well do something with the engines since the cars rotted away after only a handful of miles.

Yeah that's the reason.

[RichardJensen]

Yeah that's the reason.

 

It's because they're dirt cheap. Junkyards are full of LS blocks, and all you have to do is buy some crappy heads, crappy headers, a crappy intake manifold, and cram the whole mess into a crapped out Fox body Mustang and you can impress all your other friends with your craptastic "hot rod".

 

Of course the gigantic world of shoe-string hot rods is full of Chevy powered flotsam and jetsam, why wouldn't it be?

 

And more to the point, who cares? Aside from the small--if any--royalties GM gets from sale of heads and manifolds that fit LS motors, none of that "Chevy" power benefits Chevy.

 

And it's not like these guys building cheap and frequently ugly Chevy powered Mustangs are trend-setters. Outside their own community, nobody cares and they're all buying stuff that isn't Chevy.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Add easy maintenance and easy access to parts to that as well

 

It's a big reason why Chevy engines are widely used in marine applications too. My dads boat has a 350 Chevy in it.

Edited December 22, 2015 by fuzzymoomoo

[RichardJensen]

People have been putting Chevy motors in 30 year old Fords for over 50 years now. It's not going to change.

[fordmantpw]

Add easy maintenance and easy access to parts to that as well

 

It's a big reason why Chevy engines are widely used in marine applications too. My dads boat has a 350 Chevy in it.

 

When I was a kid, we had a boat that had a 351 with a 4-barrel in it. This was a heavy, 20' runabout. It would almost suck the fuel line dry at wide open throttle!

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

When I was a kid, we had a boat that had a 351 with a 4-barrel in it. This was a heavy, 20' runabout. It would almost suck the fuel line dry at wide open throttle!

His is a 25' Sea Ray. The carb gets unhappy at full throttle. Keeping it around 3000RPM is the sweet spot. That might have more to do with the fact that it sat for 3 years before he bought it. He took the carburetor off when he pulled it out for the winter for a rebuild, so that should help.

[fordmantpw]

A boat owner's two happiest days: The day he buys the boat and the day he sells the boat.

[fuzzymoomoo]

A boat owner's two happiest days: The day he buys the boat and the day he sells the boat.

He wanted to give it to me and my wife as a wedding gift because he has more money than sense sometimes. We put the kaibash on that