Why the Detroit Three should merge their engine operations

[RichardJensen]

 

when it could purchase a big block V8 from GM?

 

Well, GM doesn't really *have* a big block anymore. The only gas engine they have in their MD vans is the 6.0L V8 which has a pretty sizable torque deficit vs. the 6.8

Edited December 23, 2015 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

why is Ford looking to develop a new V8 to replace the Low volume V10 when it could purchase a big block V8 from GM? is the prestige of an in-house design worth the cost for such a low volume engine?

I wasn't aware that GM still produced a big block.......

 

and hasn't Ford learned enough lessons about having itself at the mercy of vested interests with critical supply.

Even with JV gearboxes, Ford and GM had the good sense to have separate plants.

 

I think were focusing on the wrong areas, it's the supplier base where far more savings are achieved by

commonality or scales of economy with about every part you can think of.

 

Engines will be the last bastion and by the time the majors switch to Electric vehicles,

those engines can gladly go to a common supplier, the major OEMs won't care by then.

 

 

Edit,

Let's see how that rumored DOHC Boss 5.8 and 10A for F250 works out,

maybe GM will come knocking on Ford's door.

Edited December 23, 2015 by jpd80

[Edstock]

 

Well, GM doesn't really *have* a big block anymore. The only gas engine they have in their MD vans is the 6.0L V8 which has a pretty sizable torque deficit vs. the 6.8

 

I could be mistaken, but I thought GM made a 7 liter engine for the Corvette and Camaro.

[jpd80]

 

I could be mistaken, but I thought GM made a 7 liter engine for the Corvette and Camaro.

they sure did but I think that was 7 liters the hard way with Siamesed bores and titanium rods..

[7Mary3]

The Chevy Big Block is still around. It's manufactured and marketed to OEM's through GM affiliate PSI Engines:

 

http://www.psiengines.com/whatwedo/on-highway-engines/

 

The Propane fueled 8.8L is currently in IC Bus school buses, gasoline versions coming soon. Likely in the DuraStar medium duty as well.

 

The 7.0L in the Corvette/Camaro is an LS engine. Strictly a high performance engine, I don't think it has any application in a commercial vehicle.

Edited December 24, 2015 by 7Mary3

[matthewq4b]

 

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm fairly certain that a lot of that research is done by Tier 1s that sell to any mfr.

 

A lot of the break through come from Teir I putting in to practical application falls on each manufacture. And all manufactures do research in this area and then share the tech under licensing. So you end up with every body paying every body for it's use. Might as well just combine R&D and save on the eventual licensing fees plus new tech developed can be cost shared to put in to practical application. It is one area that there is potential cost savings and a possibility to speed the development of new tech.

[jpd80]

Hey, no short cutting intellectual Property an all the blue haired lawyers required to protect it.......

Edited December 24, 2015 by jpd80

[ANTAUS]

A few titles that would be fitting for this story...

 

"The Big 2, should merge engine operations"

"FCA desperate for suitors"

"Reliability a concern with new FCA products"

"Redheader Step-Child Trying to Fit in"

[Stray Kat]

This kinda thing would be great, so long as Ford is the supplier of engines. I don't think Ford needs to be buying yestertech from GM or FCA.

 

Name me one category where Ford doesn't have the most advanced engine in its class. The only two holes I can think of are probably being addressed right now. I believe Ford is doing a 5.8 liter Raptor engine possibly with more valves for Super Duty trucks.

 

The other hole may be a big inch gas engine for class 6 and 7 trucks. Not a stretch to think that's being worked on too.

 

I don't think the Mazda MZR series was just an engine that Ford bought after the fact. I tend to think that was an engine design that Mazda, a company under Ford ownership, took the lead development role in but I think Ford engineers and resources were utilized through the design process.

 

The other unique situation was the Jag AJ V8 which was actually developed in a special dept of the Ford Bridgend plant, I believe. Jaguar engineers took the lead, obviously using Ford engineering resources to their advantage.

[Stray Kat]

Also this big block Chevy business being built by an outside company is an interesting thing as well. The final versions of the 8.1 liter BBC were unlike any earlier iterations of that engine family and frankly became very Ford like in their design.

 

Ford redesigned their 460 engine significantly for 1987. The cyl heads featured more modern combustion chambers, high velocity intake ports and raised and reshaped exhaust ports. Then in 1993 I think the heads were upgraded again.

 

These new heads were great and coupled with the new multi port fuel injection and improved ignition system the 460 Ford was a very viable engine for the time.

 

The BBF has some distinct advantages over any engine to come out of that era. Not the least of which is generous bore spacing, plenty of room in the crankcase and large crankshaft journals.

 

A 500+ cubic inch BBF could easily be built in that existing architecture. If the tooling still exists I believe a case could be made for that 8.0 liter V8 for big trucks coming from that engine design.

[akirby]

The other unique situation was the Jag AJ V8 which was actually developed in a special dept of the Ford Bridgend plant, I believe. Jaguar engineers took the lead, obviously using Ford engineering resources to their advantage.

 

It is built in the Bridgend plant but by Jaguar workers I think. It was engineered by Jag in Coventry.

 

The Ford version for the LS and Tbird was built in Lima.

[7Mary3]

Also this big block Chevy business being built by an outside company is an interesting thing as well. The final versions of the 8.1 liter BBC were unlike any earlier iterations of that engine family and frankly became very Ford like in their design.

 

Ford redesigned their 460 engine significantly for 1987. The cyl heads featured more modern combustion chambers, high velocity intake ports and raised and reshaped exhaust ports. Then in 1993 I think the heads were upgraded again.

 

These new heads were great and coupled with the new multi port fuel injection and improved ignition system the 460 Ford was a very viable engine for the time.

 

The BBF has some distinct advantages over any engine t o come out of that era. Not the least of which is generous bore spacing, plenty of room in the crankcase and large crankshaft journals.

 

A 500+ cubic inch BBF could easily be built in that existing architecture. If the tooling still exists I believe a case could be made for that 8.0 liter V8 for big trucks coming from that engine design.

 

Yes, the 8.1L had some significant differences (and limited parts interchangeability) compared to the traditional Mark IV/V/VI. The head design actually borrows from the LS engine family but the rest of it is very similar to the older BBC's. Strangely the new 8.8L design reverts back to the Mark VI (Vortec 7.4L) design.

 

The BBC had a couple of minor advantages compared to the Lima Ford for heavy duty commercial service. The Chevy had more head bolts and a main bearing priority oil system. The 'truck' BBC's also had 4 ring pistons.

 

I think the Lima could be resurrected for truck/commercial service, but I think Ford, at least at this point, would have a had time justifying spending the money. The V-10 works in all the commercial trucks Ford currently builds.

[Stray Kat]

Yes, the 8.1L had some significant differences (and limited parts interchangeability) compared to the traditional Mark IV/V/VI. The head design actually borrows from the LS engine family but the rest of it is very similar to the older BBC's. Strangely the new 8.8L design reverts back to the Mark VI (Vortec 7.4L) design.

 

The BBC had a couple of minor advantages compared to the Lima Ford for heavy duty commercial service. The Chevy had more head bolts and a main bearing priority oil system. The 'truck' BBC's also had 4 ring pistons.

 

I think the Lima could be resurrected for truck/commercial service, but I think Ford, at least at this point, would have a had time justifying spending the money. The V-10 works in all the commercial trucks Ford currently builds.

 

 

I respectfully disagree that the BBC has few if any advantage over the BBF in heavy truck apps, at least theoretically. The priority main oiling system is an advantage in high rpm's but in trucks I suspect there is a negligible difference.

 

The head bolt difference is an advantage for Ford in my opinion. The original Ford 10 head bolt pattern is pure and uncompromising of design. Those are blind head bolts placed in an even pattern which divides the deck area evenly. This provides an even pull and focuses stress in an even and consistent pattern.

 

Additionally with the Ford big block at a 4.9" bore center compared to the GM 4.84" bore center you have more meat between the cylinders on the Ford at any given bore diameter.

 

Again I'm of the mindset that the Forc is superior in nearly every way.

[Stray Kat]

The BBF in class 6 and 7 trucks has already had a go. They were available in 370 and 429 cubic inches. These engines utilized the newly revised top ends and down below they were all HD. The 429's in particular had forged steel cranks and I think 4 ring pistons. The cyl blocks also had cylinder barrels that extended into the crankcase a little to further stabilize the fully skirted pistons.

 

Those were excellent engines and they disappeared way too soon.

[RichardJensen]

Additionally with the Ford big block at a 4.9" bore center compared to the GM 4.84" bore center you have more meat between the cylinders on the Ford at any given bore diameter.

 

Yeah, boy, that'd make for a really boss top fuel drag engine, wouldn't it? I wonder if anyone's tried running a 385 instead of those Hemi-based engines....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(yes I did that on purpose)

[Stray Kat]

Yeah, boy, that'd make for a really boss top fuel drag engine, wouldn't it? I wonder if anyone's tried running a 385 instead of those Hemi-based engines....

 

 

Richard as you and you both know the 4.9" Fords are illegal in NHRA fuel classes. If they were legal they would have the advantage of having more material around the removable sleeves which would add strength.

 

The nitro engines do not run a super large bore. I believe there are two popular combinations. One being 4 1/8" bore and the other 4 3/8" if I'm not mistaken. Now the current hemi based engines are at the Chrysler 4.8" bore center spec. Even with those small bore engines they can use all the material they can get in there around the sleeves.

 

I strongly believe if the NHRA let John Force and Ford build a more "Ford-like" nitro engine when they did the Boss 500 you would have seen Ford hang around a bit longer. When the NHRA nixed the Ford engine the handwriting was already on the wall.

 

Of course all this has nothing to do with the subject at hand it is an interesting sidelight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(yes I did that on purpose)

[Stray Kat]

I just realized. Maybe you were baiting me with your last post?

[RichardJensen]

I wasn't baiting you. I was hoping you'd catch the joke and run with it---

 

--boy, that would be great. Let's just take a look at the NHRA rule book.............

 

..............maximum bore spacing 4.84"?

 

Hmm.

 

It's almost like they made up a rule *just to keep out the 385s*

 

Hmm.

 

It sure seems like that, but then, it would be so uncharacteristic for a sanctioning body to play favorites among manufacturers. Why, such things never happen in Nascar, or Indycar, and certainly not in Formula 1.

[jpd80]

Say, let's design the rule book for top fuel around one engine's specifications and see what happens....

 

What could possibly be wrong with that...

Edited December 26, 2015 by jpd80

[Steveottawa]

Sergio wants this, (for sure) but John Mackelroy is crazy to think this is appropriate. FCA is likely toast (in less than 3 years) and they will be swallowed up. There is one merger of power platforms.

 

When I was in Eastern Europe and saw first hand the same key lock for every door and same garbage can, I laughed. Awesome for manufacturing efficiencies.

 

Do you think they would have invented a garberator or a keyless lock?

 

You don't need to merge engine operations. Well, not if long term you want better technologies and quality. Innovation requires competition and rivalries and passion. That doesn't happen in a communistic factory structure.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Steveottawa

[pictor]

Aren't MB and Nissan/ Renault starting to share engines?

[Stray Kat]

I wonder if the new Fiat 124 that is based on the Mazda MX5/Miata uses a true Fiat engine or do they retune and restyle the Mazda engine that comes in the Miata currently?

 

Anyhow just one little opinion from me on what woulda, shoulda and coulda happened in nitro racing during its transition period in the early 70's.

 

Now why do I say "transition" period? Well in my opinion that's when the NHRA realized they had a real show on their hands. Funny cars for example were becoming less identified by their body type (Ford,Chevy,Mopar) and more intrinsically valued for the show they brought out.

 

You had the Snake, the Mongoose, the Blue Max, the Snowman etc. They realized most people in the stands didn't care what was under the body so long as they were the sensory overloading experience that they became and still are.

 

Speaking to the transition period again, this was also the time when nitro racers were making a lot more power and they were overwhelming the factory bottom ends. This was especially true of the early hemi 392 types. Those things needed a lot of help to stay together. The 426 was better but realize that the early hemi's were still very viable since much of the first nitro racing componetry was designed for them.

 

Well at a certain point Ed Donovan sees the weak link and does something about it. He built something called the Donovan 417. To my knowledge this was the first aftermarket block patterned after an American V8. It was a sensational success. It not only made available more good blocks to choose from but it was lighter due to being cast from aluminun and it addressed all the the 392's weaknesses.

 

Making a long story short the 426 received the same treatment later by companies like Milodon and Keith Black.

 

So what does this have to do with Ford you ask? Well I ask you to think back at the genesis of hot rodding and drag racing. In the very early days the performance aftermarket almost wholly existed to service the market for Flathead Ford speed equipment. During that era Ford Motor Company did very little to make the Flathead faster outside of continuously refining it's design. So the first speed merchants jumped in with both feet doing their own experimentation and started churning out go fast parts for Flathead Ford vehicles.

 

When the sbc came out in '55 the entire industry turned on a dime. Yes there was some external stuff for the early OHV V8's but nothing like what was made for Flathead Fords and then the new Chevy V8. Mopar hemi's did get a lot of attention due to their value as good drag race engines.

 

There was piss little available for the Ford V8's of that era. Most of what was available for them was rehashed stuff originally conceived for the sbc. Further still in 1958 you could buy a 300hp Ford and a 400hp Merc. It was harder to improve on what Ford was doing at the time.

 

It wasn't until 1962 at the dawn of the Total Performance era at Ford did real top of the line performance parts started to appear. Ford was their own aftermarket. There was no other manufacturer competing and winning in such a wide variety of racing forms. I doubt the aftermarket vendors could have done say an intake manifold or camshaft better than Ford was doing by themselves at the time.

 

Well all of that blockading brings me to the point I would like to make. Near future the end of the Total Performance era Ford had a highly developed Boss 429 based all alloy engine that I think with a little work could have taken nitro racing by storm.

 

I am referring to the CanAm Boss 494. First it was all high grade alloy of construction. It was very well reinforced for high power and rpm road racing. It has the pinnacle of cylinder head development attracted to this beefy block and may I add those deep breathing heads were held by 18 head bolts instead of the normal 10 on regular Boss engines. That was 6 bolts around each hole evenly positioned.

 

This engine had an industrial strength bottom end including connecting rods that were second to none at the time. They even had a pan mounted dry sump oil pump system that was very advanced and came out of Ford's Indy program.

 

So what? What does this have to do with anything? Wel while the CanAm 494 was short lived simply because it emerged just before Ford got out of racing in the early 70's it did not mean that engine was a failure. Had only someone at Ford approached a Keith Black or Ed Pink with the idea of converting the 494 into a nitro drag racing engine there could have been a completely different history to fuel racing.

 

What the aftermarket was doing by cloning the Mopar designs, Ford did the same thing in house, albeit for a different form of racing. Even if Ford gave someone the tooling and said see what you can do with it there could hav been a bit of a bright spot for the FoMoCo brand during the "dark days"of the 1970's.

 

In my opinion that was a huge opportunity lost.

[RichardJensen]

I doubt the aftermarket vendors could have done say an intake manifold or camshaft better than Ford was doing by themselves at the time.

 

I'd never considered that aspect of things... Thanks for the insight.

[Stray Kat]

I tell you what I don't know too much about powerplant sharing for new vehicles but I sure do miss Ford Power Products.

 

In my past I have purchased quite a few FPP engines for boats and industrial repowers.

 

There are probably several good reasons why that is a thing of the past but I sure wish Ford would take several key products and sell them under an FPP banner or something similar.

 

Not everything is for or should be for racing. How about some basic V8's for trucks and boats? The 1.0 3 cylinder Ecoboost could be a boon for small lightweight vehicles.

 

I miss the old days when Ford was in everything from tractors to semi trucks. I know that's probably wrong in today's world but I'm still nostalgic for the good old days.

[StangBang]

That was uncalled for.

Truth hurts some times. LOL I don't like it anymore than you do, but it is what it is.

Give him some Orbit gum! Edited December 27, 2015 by StangBang