akirby Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Looks like I’m due for trip back to the dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarheels23 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Nope, not once. In fact, Ive noticed since his appointment to CEO the amount of end of line inspectors (at least at my plant) has gone down. Theyre nearly nonexistent now. I think thats my new major bitch above cost cutting. no amount of inspection improves the quality of a product. Quality is built into a product when the correct processes are developed and followed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 (edited) no amount of inspection improves the quality of a product. Quality is built into a product when the correct processes are developed and followed. Not true when humans are doing the assembly. Because processes are followed at the begining then they go by the wayside. They are just words and pictures that nobody reads after awhile. It's get it out the door for the sake of profits. Edited April 7, 2018 by coupe3w 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 no amount of inspection improves the quality of a product. Quality is built into a product when the correct processes are developed and followed. Strongly disagree. I have a perfect example but Im not about to screw myself over because I stopped complaining about it 2 years ago. Nothing was being done to fix the problem I was bringing attention to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 (edited) Strongly disagree. I have a perfect example but Im not about to screw myself over because I stopped complaining about it 2 years ago. Nothing was being done to fix the problem I was bringing attention to. He's correct in theory: if you develop and follow correct processes, the quality will be built in. The problem is that you have to follow the processes all along the way, but we all know that people aren't that infallible. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is... Edited April 7, 2018 by SoonerLS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Strongly disagree. I have a perfect example but Im not about to screw myself over because I stopped complaining about it 2 years ago. Nothing was being done to fix the problem I was bringing attention to. But you just described either a bad process, lack of a process or not following the process of using feedback to fix the problem. I think the point was if you don’t engineer in quality from the beginning and follow processes to maintain and improve quality then you just end up either doing a lot of rework or you let bad stuff out the door because you can’t keep up with it. Adding inspectors but doing nothing to fix the root cause of the problem is not the key to success. Engineer it so it’s easier to build and there is less chance for human error. You still need inspections because equipment and people can still fail, but failures should be rare. When a problem is found, get to the root cause and fix it permanently whether it’s a machine problem, human error or a design issue. I suspect Ford has been in cost cutting mode and either unable or unwilling to fix the root cause of the problems, so adding inspectors and trying to fix the problems before they reach the customer is the only other solution. It’s also penny wise, pound foolish and there is no reason for it given the company’s recent profitability. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 But you just described either a bad process, lack of a process or not following the process of using feedback to fix the problem. I think the point was if you dont engineer in quality from the beginning and follow processes to maintain and improve quality then you just end up either doing a lot of rework or you let bad stuff out the door because you cant keep up with it. Adding inspectors but doing nothing to fix the root cause of the problem is not the key to success. Engineer it so its easier to build and there is less chance for human error. You still need inspections because equipment and people can still fail, but failures should be rare. When a problem is found, get to the root cause and fix it permanently whether its a machine problem, human error or a design issue. I suspect Ford has been in cost cutting mode and either unable or unwilling to fix the root cause of the problems, so adding inspectors and trying to fix the problems before they reach the customer is the only other solution. Its also penny wise, pound foolish and there is no reason for it given the companys recent profitability. Its not the process. They dont have the problem Im referring to on day shift. Its one guy not doing his job and nobody holding him accountable for it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 nobody holding him accountable for it. But you see - that in itself is a process problem. You should be able to escalate to get that fixed - or his management should be looking at KPIs and see that there is a problem that isn’t being addressed. The right process will handle all types of problems including people not doing their jobs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 (edited) But you see - that in itself is a process problem. You should be able to escalate to get that fixed - or his management should be looking at KPIs and see that there is a problem that isnt being addressed. The right process will handle all types of problems including people not doing their jobs. Heres the process in a nutshell as they currently operate: Why is the line stopped? Theres a problem with ______ Well get the line moving, whatever you have to do They dont bother fixing the problem because that takes too much time. They live and die by that almighty production number. The other part of the problem is that most people in management have NO CLUE how these cars are built. I once heard a production manager (literally the guy running the whole plant at the time) ask if we could run with out front subframes because we were running low. Just last week we had an issue where we got door panels that didnt match with the rest of the interior. Everything was correct on my end (numbers matched, color matched what was on the build sheet) but the rest of the interior was tan when it shouldnt have been. The guy who came and asked us about it didnt even know that the doors on door line arent the same from one side to the other, theyre offset by 11 (meaning my side of the line is 11 cars ahead from the other). So ok yeah I guess its a failure in process after all.... Edited April 7, 2018 by fuzzymoomoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 When production speed is more important than quality that’s what happens. That has to come top down - you’ll be rewarded for production speed but only if quality is good. You have to make it better for the manager to have slower production but better quality. All you have to do is follow the money. And that’s something the CEO can absolutely dictate by changing the compensation system. I’m sure Mark Fields felt the same way though - better to get the stuff out fast than right. Disappointed Hackett isn’t trying to change that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Here is a real example: Welders got paid something like $0.08 per weld. But if they had to go back and fix a bad weld they got $0.25. And it was the same welders doing both jobs. Amazingly, the defect rate was very high - more than 20%. They were purposely doing bad welds because they got more money. The company finally figured it out and gave them maybe $0.10 per weld but they had to fix bad welds for free. The defect rate dropped to almost 0 overnight. You have to give workers the right incentive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Here is a real example: Welders got paid something like $0.08 per weld. But if they had to go back and fix a bad weld they got $0.25. And it was the same welders doing both jobs. Amazingly, the defect rate was very high - more than 20%. They were purposely doing bad welds because they got more money. The company finally figured it out and gave them maybe $0.10 per weld but they had to fix bad welds for free. The defect rate dropped to almost 0 overnight. You have to give workers the right incentive. FCA incorporated an incentive into their 2015 contract that gives bonuses to hourly workers based on quality. It blew my mind that neither GM or Ford carried that over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Regardless the reason for recalls, the media attention has an effect on potential customers and their perception of Ford's quality, not to mention the customer that has to keep bringing their vehicles back to the dealership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Regardless the reason for recalls, the media attention has an effect on potential customers and their perception of Ford's quality, not to mention the customer that has to keep bringing their vehicles back to the dealership. I agree. Its really embarrassing. I dont understand how these issues can be an on going thing and nothing is being done about it. Just like door latches. How many years can you have door latch problems? Ford has had door latch issues on various models since 1997 that I have been involved with. It was the explorers, Taurus, focus, in the 90s up to about 2003. Then it was the 2011-2013 edge with door ajar problems. Now its then fusion, escape, and F150. Im mean come on how ridiculous is that. Almost your entire line has had chronic door latch recalls. Not to mention the 6f35 that still has issues from poor assembly and/or case casting issues that cuts seals. I cant believe the board of directors do not see these things and realize a cheap supplier is not always a deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 I agree. Its really embarrassing. I dont understand how these issues can be an on going thing and nothing is being done about it. Just like door latches. How many years can you have door latch problems? Ford has had door latch issues on various models since 1997 that I have been involved with. It was the explorers, Taurus, focus, in the 90s up to about 2003. Then it was the 2011-2013 edge with door ajar problems. Now its then fusion, escape, and F150. Im mean come on how ridiculous is that. Almost your entire line has had chronic door latch recalls. Not to mention the 6f35 that still has issues from poor assembly and/or case casting issues that cuts seals. I cant believe the board of directors do not see these things and realize a cheap supplier is not always a deal. Remember when "Quality is Job #1" was the advertising theme? Someone obviously knew it was time to change the marketing slogan! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Remember when "Quality is Job #1" was the advertising theme? Someone obviously knew it was time to change the marketing slogan! They still have that plastered throughout the plants. In reality its more like job #3 or 4 depending on how well the line is running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdegrand Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Not true when humans are doing the assembly. Because processes are followed at the begining then they go by the wayside. They are just words and pictures that nobody reads after awhile. It's get it out the door for the sake of profits. The UAW is generally against robots taking their jobs away. Its appears this issue was not the fault of a robot. I worked the line at MTP where I had to install clips on the line while keeping the assembly running. Don't stop the line! It was stressful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarheels23 Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 Not true when humans are doing the assembly. Because processes are followed at the begining then they go by the wayside. They are just words and pictures that nobody reads after awhile. It's get it out the door for the sake of profits. my last comment was followed, if they are followed then.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarheels23 Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 Strongly disagree. I have a perfect example but Im not about to screw myself over because I stopped complaining about it 2 years ago. Nothing was being done to fix the problem I was bringing attention to. and I have thousands of examples that prove my statement is correct. check with Dr. W. Edwards Deming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 These new engineers from automotive to highway bridges are nowhere near as smart as the old ones who are all retiring. It's called the dumbing down of America. You see you can't fail any students anymore because it will hurt their feelings. So in 20 years you're going to see bridges they designed fall and in the case of doctors, hospital operating rooms will become slaughter houses. Combine that with the fact that these new teachers, who shouldn't have been allowed to get their teaching degrees (but we couldn't fail them either) are teaching new students so every generation gets dumber and dumber. That pedestrian bridge that fell a few months ago was built off-site and then hastily put in place and from what I saw and read, there was no support in the middle of the structure, temporary or permanent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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