sullynd Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Year to Date Sales: F Series...................451,138 Silverado..................291,074. Sierra........................100,874 Total..........................391,148 Silverado..................291,074. Sierra........................100,874 Colorado.....................69,875 Canyon.......................16,848 Total..........................478,671 Wonder what happens if you add full size utilities (GM) and full size vans (Ford). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Looks like protectionism with the 25% chicken tariff works well for keeping U.S. based automakers (GM and Ford) so dominant in this segment. The other American automaker, Tesla, will dominate the pure electric pickup truck market in a few years. I just dont get many of your comments... like this one. What manufacturer is even remotely capable or has a competitor? The two would be Nissan and Toyota and both of them make the their 1/2 tons (if you call them that) in the US so there is no chicken tax. Who else would even try to enter the segment if there was no chicken tax? Nobody!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) At sullynd, You start to see GMs bigger production and sales footprint Edited July 13, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Wonder what happens if you add full size utilities (GM) and full size vans (Ford). Year to Date Sales: F Series...................451,138 E-Series Van.............25,505 Transit.......................71,412 Transit Connect........15,454 Expedition.................27,934 Navigator....................9,115 Total.......................600,558 Silverado..................291,074. Sierra........................100,874 Colorado.....................69,875 Canyon.......................16,848 Escalade....................13,528 Escalade ESV..............4.242 City Express.................3,941 Express van...............41,187 Tahoe.........................50,523 Suburban...................29,861 Savanna Van.............11,964 Yukon........................19,150 Yukon XL...................15,372 Total..........................668,439 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) It is amazing to see how tiny Ford's Full-size utility business is compared to GM's, there is a nearly 100,000 sales difference. Ford: 37,049 GM: 132,676 Now combine the Full-Size truck platform products and you see GM is squeezing far more volume out of this business than Ford. Ford: 488,187 GM: 524,624 This isn't to discount that F-Series is a big success, but I would argue GM's truck business is still bigger even at the point it's the oldest. I think Ford's matured F-Series business will start getting hit by the new RAM and Silverado/Sierra which will squeeze them on margins as well as they have to start competing with heavier incentives. GM will probably suffer from a sales dip momentarily with the changeover which is probably why GM is loading up on sales right now. But Ford will most likely start shrinking modestly at the top and hopefully offset that with more volume from Ranger to grow their truck business overall as well as some modest overall growth from Expedition/Nav (mostly in retail growth). As always, I'm sure the updated F-Series will help get them back into shape around 2020 and 2021. Edited July 13, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Actually, those combined figures for Ford are quite good when you consider that it making and selling almost as many large Trucks and Utilities as GM does with it's four plant strategy and dedicated SUV plant. Just imagine what could have been in 2011 if:Ford had: - Reconfigured Michigan truck Plant for T6 Ranger, Expedition and Navigator - Given Expedition and Navigator 5.0 V8 and 3.5 Ecoboost in line with F150. - placed C1 Focus production at Cuautitlan with Fiesta. Those changes would have allowed Ford to capitalize on both mid sized trucks, large SUVs and as many Super Dutys as needed. It would have also put Focus in a low cost manufacturing plant.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Need I remind people that GM was #1 in volume and went bankrupt? Volume is great but when it takes 2-3 times more vehicles it isn't nearly as profitable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 I just dont get many of your comments... like this one. What manufacturer is even remotely capable or has a competitor? The two would be Nissan and Toyota and both of them make the their 1/2 tons (if you call them that) in the US so there is no chicken tax. Who else would even try to enter the segment if there was no chicken tax? Nobody!! 25% tariff applies to all pickup trucks imported to U.S. from non-NAFTA countries. Both midsize and fullsize. Only reason this tax exists is because of major government lobbying from U.S. automakers (GM and Ford). Pickup trucks from Mitsubishi, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, Mazda, and Isuzu sold globally are effectively shut out of the U.S. market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Mitsubishi and mazda both sold pickups in the US. Its not the fault of the government they chose to end manufacturing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 25% tariff applies to all pickup trucks imported to U.S. from non-NAFTA countries. Both midsize and fullsize. Only reason this tax exists is because of major government lobbying from U.S. automakers (GM and Ford). Pickup trucks from Mitsubishi, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, Mazda, and Isuzu sold globally are effectively shut out of the U.S. market. If Toyota and Nissan can't compete with trucks built here there is no reason to think the others would be any more successful. Ford, GM and Ram are successful because they've been building trucks for 60+ years not because of a lack of competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) 25% tariff applies to all pickup trucks imported to U.S. from non-NAFTA countries. Both midsize and fullsize. Only reason this tax exists is because of major government lobbying from U.S. automakers (GM and Ford). Pickup trucks from Mitsubishi, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, Mazda, and Isuzu sold globally are effectively shut out of the U.S. market. I know what it applies too.. no need to explain it to me. You really think VW and MB would enter a full size pickup market? You are crazy if you think that, especially if VW has exited the diesel market in the US. Even without the tax, I could only imagine the cost of a MB pickup if the F450s are approaching $100k. They would not even try to compete. Delusional!! I can only imagine the repair costs for these things if they were made. Edited July 13, 2018 by blwnsmoke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 If Toyota and Nissan can't compete with trucks built here there is no reason to think the others would be any more successful. Ford, GM and Ram are successful because they've been building trucks for 60+ years not because of a lack of competition. I agree akirby sir that Ford and GM have a long history with pickup trucks in the U.S. They have developed a loyal customer base in those decades. That customer loyalty is major part of their success in this market. The chicken tariff helped solidify GM's and Ford's lead. Thanks to the tariff, all U.S. market pickup trucks sold new from both the American companies (Ford, GM) and the foreign companies (Ram, Toyota, Nissan) are assembled in NAFTA countries. The tariff reduced competition for sure by killing the market in the U.S. for pickup trucks built outside NAFTA. No chance that pickup trucks made in Thailand, Argentina, and South Africa will be imported to the U.S. until the tariff is repealed. Including Ford and GM trucks made in those countries. To me as a pickup truck owner in Texas, it means fewer choices when shopping for a new pickup. And having to wait until new Ford Ranger T6 is available to buy. I'm ok with that. The other segment where U.S. automakers dominate in their home market is plug-in vehicles. GM, Ford, and Tesla sold about 53% of all EV and PHEV in the U.S. for the first half of 2018. U.S. Federal Government policy helps the American companies in this case too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 I know what it applies too.. no need to explain it to me. You really think VW and MB would enter a full size pickup market? You are crazy if you think that, especially if VW has exited the diesel market in the US. Even without the tax, I could only imagine the cost of a MB pickup if the F450s are approaching $100k. They would not even try to compete. Delusional!! I can only imagine the repair costs for these things if they were made. Two things... 1. You never know how the truck markets would have evolved with serious foreign competition. There was a time when Big 3 sold 90% of the cars in the US but a level playing field allowed serious competition. Now there are no body on frame fullsize or midsize sedans, the kind of cars that Big 3 used to sell in huge quantities. The point is if there were more competitors in the truck market shaping the direction of product development, they might have steered it to their favor rather to Ford or GM's favor. 2. You forgot chicken tax also applied to vans. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Toyota, Daimler, and VW would have all been selling lots of vans in the US had there not been chicken tax. Every major car company in the world sell cargo vans and they were locked out of the US market by chicken tax. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 25% tariff applies to all pickup trucks imported to U.S. from non-NAFTA countries. Both midsize and fullsize. Only reason this tax exists is because of major government lobbying from U.S. automakers (GM and Ford). Pickup trucks from Mitsubishi, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, Mazda, and Isuzu sold globally are effectively shut out of the U.S. market. . You need to go back a read about the "Chicken Tax" (enacted in 1964)....the companies that found loopholes and worked around this the best are the domestic manufacturers...Transit Connect is a prime example (but not the only one) of how a company can get around the tariff and import a competitive vehicle to the NA market. As it went on over the decades, this tariff actually worked as intended and leveraged several foreign manufacturers to build plants in the US so that they could compete in the NA market place...Volkswagen was the initial target of the tariff but it's enactment prevented the decimation of the American truck manufacturing base and encouraged more construction and competition in the US for these sales. Ironically, VW didn't try to build a truck production facility in the US in response to the tariff...Their Westmorland Pennsylvania plant was a re-purposed Chrysler plant that closed in 1988 and didn't produce any trucks and its current Chattanooga TN plant opened in 2011 and builds SUV's... Maybe this explains their interest in International trucks....that would give them a place to bring in their HD trucks and other truck products into the US at a tariff dodging lower cost... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Mitsubishi and mazda both sold pickups in the US. Its not the fault of the government they chose to end manufacturing here. Something tells me that you may be building a VW Amarok based on NG Ranger. much the same way Mazda BT and Ranger production were twinned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Something tells me that you may be building a VW Amarok based on NG Ranger. much the same way Mazda BT and Ranger production were twinned. I personally wont. The building I will be in makes parts for Dearborn/Kansas City, Kentucky Truck and Louisville. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) GM is leading on volume and profits however, this is a very different and extremely well run GM so the assumption that it's sacrificing profits for volume just isn't valid anymore. Ford is falling in both profits and volume and is poised to be surpassed by FCA on profits this year. Ford will overcome this and return to a better position eventually, but Ford has chronic sustainability problems so this is just part of the self-imposed crisis cycle that Ford has to go through every 10 years. I'm not sure what will stop this cycle from happening but it ALWAYS does, Fields even baked it into his product planning. Edited July 13, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 (edited) GM is heavily leveraged on trucks and larger Utilities for profit just like Ford, probably even more so..... All of GM's extra profit has come from it's greater investment in and solid sales of full sized Utilities. In contrast, Toyota North America sells almost as much product as Ford but basically devoid of those full sized Utility and truck sales which is why its North American profits are minuscule in comparison. Therefore, I don't think that GM, Ford or Toyota makes much profit on any of the remaining products they sell, and i suspect that's the reason why Ford has been avoiding biting the bullet, it's gonna hit the budgets hard for not much return. Edited July 14, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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