Deanh Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 10 minutes ago, Assimilator said: Don't forget the GM twins. they are relatively new to the party no?...at least compared with Toyota which soldiered on and basically had the segment to themselves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 17 minutes ago, Deanh said: lol...thats funny, so removal of doors etc and making a car less safe is covered by "offroad use only"....first sign of a fatality would be a lawsuit IMO. There's also a few laws that have now been replaced or repealed that the Wrangler is grandfathered to because it's been in production so long, laws that used to apply to the Bronco as well. I have an engineer friend who works for Roush's FCA department who explained it to me once but the details are kind of fuzzy. Because of that grandfather clause and the name continuity that is no longer there for the Bronco there is going to be some people disappointed in how the roof of the Bronco works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Just now, fuzzymoomoo said: There's also a few laws that have now been replaced or repealed that the Wrangler is grandfathered to because it's been in production so long, laws that used to apply to the Bronco as well. I have an engineer friend who works for Roush's FCA department who explained it to me once but the details are kind of fuzzy. Because of that grandfather clause and the name continuity that is no longer there for the Bronco there is going to be some people disappointed in how the roof of the Bronco works. wait till Fords advertisement which shows rollover testing gets air time....lol.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 26 minutes ago, Assimilator said: Actually Camaro tried really hard, but trying really hard doesn't mean anything if you miss what the customer wants. My point is that substance and stats doesn't always make a more successful product. It's complicated. And my God I'm not bashing the Ranger, but you have to recognize Tacoma's success in the same way you have to acknowledge Wrangler or Mustang. Keeping those customers didn't happen entirely by accident (although continuity is key). Don't forget about the F-body Camaro of the 90s that soldiered on for about a decade with very few upgrades. And before someone says it, I'm aware Ford basically did the same thing through the 80s with the Fox body Mustang. The difference is Ford was willing to invest in the SN-97 Mustang where GM took the easy way out and just killed the Camaro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Don't forget about the F-body Camaro of the 90s that soldiered on for about a decade with very few upgrades. And before someone says it, I'm aware Ford basically did the same thing through the 80s with the Fox body Mustang. The difference is Ford was willing to invest in the SN-97 Mustang where GM took the easy way out and just killed the Camaro. Which is what they will probably do now that Al Oppenheiser has moved on to Electric vehicles, he was basically the heart and soul of Camaro development. Without any spark of enthusiasm, Camaro will probably just keep drifting and eventually fade away Quote Chevrolet Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser Reassigned to GM’s Electric Vehicle Group By ANDREW WENDLER Dec 7, 2018www.caranddriver.com Edited December 8, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 (edited) I think both Ford and GM recognize that Mustang and Camaro have run their course on ICE platforms and the next iteration involves electrification which is a major shift. Mustang will prove this EXTREMELY well with their V8 Hybrid, alongside the Mach-E which has more torque than the Mustang GT today. If they don't make this transition, they will become anachronisms for retirees and I know Ford won't let that happen. The future of performance is all electric and I know Ford is going to make sure Mustang isn't rendered obsolete. We are approaching that point really quickly today already, Model 3 already smokes a Mustang GT. An entire generation is growing up not even thinking about Mustang because they think it's old school muscle car fake-fast (It looks and sounds fast, but isn't that fast). Camaro is just feeling this effect more quickly. There is no path toward growth without significant modernization. Edited December 8, 2018 by Assimilator 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 2 hours ago, jcartwright99 said: Tacoma is horrible. The ONLY reason it sells well is the Toyota fanboys and it's reliability. The truck hasn't changed much at all in a decade. Keep in mind, it was one of the only options out there for a while. Toyota Tacoma was redesigned 3 years ago inside, out, and underneath. Only the old 2.7L 2TR engine and the manual transmissions are carryover from the previous generation. After the redesign, Tacoma's reliability went down a lot. Consumer Reports reliability rating for new Tacoma is below average. It's still a crude truck, and I found the driving position and front seats very uncomfortable. That's why I crossed Tacoma off my pickup truck shopping list. Nonetheless, there are lots of people of who are drawn by the Tacoma nameplate, and by the off road capabilities of TRD Off-Road and TRD Pro versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 35 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Which is what they will probably do now that Al Oppenheiser has moved on to Electric vehicles, he was basically the heart and soul of Camaro development. Without any spark of enthusiasm, Camaro will probably just keep drifting and eventually fade away That doesn't really mean anything, happens all the time. When S550 launched, the lead engineer on the project (Dave Pericak) was reassigned to lead Ford Performance. Frequently at Ford and GM being lead engineer of a major program is a stepping stone to higher levels of management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: And before someone says it, I'm aware Ford basically did the same thing through the 80s with the Fox body Mustang. The difference is Ford was willing to invest in the SN-97 Mustang where GM took the easy way out and just killed the Camaro. Ford didn't really do that with the '80s Mustang. They switched from carbs to EFI, and they took a gamble on a fairly major styling jump in '87 (which made C&D's Top 10 list that year). Not to mention the turbo 4-banger Mustang SVO that could actually go around corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 29 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: That doesn't really mean anything, happens all the time. When S550 launched, the lead engineer on the project (Dave Pericak) was reassigned to lead Ford Performance. Frequently at Ford and GM being lead engineer of a major program is a stepping stone to higher levels of management. The same thing happened with Hau Thai-Tang after the launch of SN197. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) 22 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: That doesn't really mean anything, happens all the time. When S550 launched, the lead engineer on the project (Dave Pericak) was reassigned to lead Ford Performance. But in this case, Al Oppenheiser was connected with Camaro for around ten years, so his transfer could be a signal of them winding down Alpha as they want him over on better things like new EV development.... Edited December 9, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 On 12/7/2018 at 8:07 PM, Assimilator said: We are approaching that point really quickly today already, Model 3 already smokes a Mustang GT. An entire generation is growing up not even thinking about Mustang because they think it's old school muscle car fake-fast (It looks and sounds fast, but isn't that fast). Camaro is just feeling this effect more quickly. There is no path toward growth without significant modernization. Exactly, Ford needs to take the Mustang Fully Electric with in the next 10 years if it wants any long term future out of the brand. You can sell old people a young persons car, you can't sell a young person an old persons car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 I love the sound of the V8 engine so much and as a getting to be old guy would buy a V8 Mustang 10 years from now. But I am sure the intoxicating feel of the instant torque and fast acceleration from the Electric motor would make up for some of that and I would of course buy the electric. Maybe it will be available with fake V8 sound for us old guys. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 I don’t see a fully electric Mustang till the end of the next decade- it’s not like fully electric vehicle is going to be profitable in a car that is about $25k. Prices will drop as time goes on, but it’s going to take a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: I don’t see a fully electric Mustang till the end of the next decade- it’s not like fully electric vehicle is going to be profitable in a car that is about $25k. Prices will drop as time goes on, but it’s going to take a while. It's supposed to come as a hybrid when the next generation comes in 2023. Full electric shouldn't be that far behind IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, tzach said: I love the sound of the V8 engine so much and as a getting to be old guy would buy a V8 Mustang 10 years from now. But I am sure the intoxicating feel of the instant torque and fast acceleration from the Electric motor would make up for some of that and I would of course buy the electric. Maybe it will be available with fake V8 sound for us old guys. Picture Mustang in 10 years time, a fully electric sports car with piped sound and shake of a V8 muscle car but the challenge is to take driver inputs and imitate anything mechanical from the past...from clutch dump launches to pauses between manual gear shifts or the launch and shift of a powerglide to 10-speed automatc....even changing from AWD to RWD to get those snaking tram track power launches.... Edited December 9, 2018 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 6 hours ago, jpd80 said: Picture Mustang in 10 years time, a fully electric sports car with piped sound and shake of a V8 muscle car but the challenge is to take driver inputs and imitate anything mechanical from the past...from clutch dump launches to pauses between manual gear shifts or the launch and shift of a powerglide to 10-speed automatc....even changing from AWD to RWD to get those snaking tram track power launches.... Sadly the manual will completely die with the takeover of the electric car. I weep ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) Electric is critical for performance, Mustang will make that transition more palatable with a V8 Hybrid. What I'm not sure on is how they will confront full EV performance. Mustang is their one and only performance vehicle so I have a hard time believing they'll sit Mustang out to retain the V8. I think we'll have to see what GM does, I do believe they have a much more advanced BEV rollout while Ford will spend most of the next decade transitioning with Hybrids. Edited December 10, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, tzach said: Sadly the manual will completely die with the takeover of the electric car. I weep ? Think about an EV imitating manual and automatic transmissions and how that could be accomplished.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 And then we'll get nostalgia from people who miss the glory days of shifting transmissions and rumbling engines...until they step out of their modern luxuries and back into the primitives of their youth and realize how great progress really is. I feel like I've lived a dozen lifetimes because I've seen this process repeat itself over and over again, including to me. Nostalgia is for people who feel left out and out of touch, don't be one of those people, it makes you old. ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) I am way too young for driving a stick to be a nostalgia thing for me, and it really saddens me it's all but a relic of the past at this point Edited December 10, 2018 by fuzzymoomoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Assimilator said: And then we'll get nostalgia from people who miss the glory days of shifting transmissions and rumbling engines...until they step out of their modern luxuries and back into the primitives of their youth and realize how great progress really is. I feel like I've lived a dozen lifetimes because I've seen this process repeat itself over and over again, including to me. Nostalgia is for people who feel left out and out of touch, don't be one of those people, it makes you old. ? Let me be clear, I'm not saying that a new EV Mustang should have manual or auto trans, just a program that can mimic them if required. A bit like themes, normal setting is basic EV, click a button and you have a GT350, click another setting and you have a 429 Boss... An EV Mustang offers and opportunity to be many different Mustangs all wrapped up in one package. Offer the things a Tesla can't. Edited December 10, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: It's supposed to come as a hybrid when the next generation comes in 2023. Full electric shouldn't be that far behind IMO. Its going to take a new platform to be able to fit a battery pack big enough to give the Mustang the range it needs to suceed as a BEV. The other thing to consider is pricing-I don't think Ford can make $$$ on a $30K (Inflantory pricing over the next 10-12 years) entry level BEV Mustang. Yes, pricing will come down for BEVs, but how many people are going to embrace BEVs, unless they get 300 miles or so per charge? I'm not saying its not going to happen, but I think 2030 is a much better bet then 2025 for it to actually happen. Who knows, Ford might not be even around then Edited December 10, 2018 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 8 hours ago, jpd80 said: Think about an EV imitating manual and automatic transmissions and how that could be accomplished.... That is the problem, I don't want an imitation I want the real thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 6 hours ago, Assimilator said: And then we'll get nostalgia from people who miss the glory days of shifting transmissions and rumbling engines...until they step out of their modern luxuries and back into the primitives of their youth and realize how great progress really is. I feel like I've lived a dozen lifetimes because I've seen this process repeat itself over and over again, including to me. Nostalgia is for people who feel left out and out of touch, don't be one of those people, it makes you old. ? I love progress as much as the next guy but along with making life easier and better it sometimes takes away the things you love. I don't want those things because they are better or more efficient I want them because I enjoy them. What is life without the things you enjoy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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