Kev-Mo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: People who own Kia, Hyundai, and Genesis vehicles do. They all have well deserved reputation for high quality. Those 3 brands had the highest scores in J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey in 2019. Don't know how the rankings will play out for 2020, but Hyundai Motor Group has been able to introduce new and redesigned models that do well in quality and reliability surveys in the 1st model year. Nobody can ever tell the difference between 70 problems per 100 vehicles and 83 problems per 100 vehicles. Since a single consumer can't experience 7 tenths of a problem, both Kia and Ford round to approx 1 problem per vehicle. Rankings in this manner are a useless way to rate reliability, to the point you are splitting hairs to put one above or below the other. For that matter, the entire chart rounds up or down to 1 problem per vehicle - in the real world, the entire chart is statistical tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, Kev-Mo said: For that matter, the entire chart rounds up or down to 1 problem per vehicle - in the real world, the entire chart is statistical tie. I've been saying this for years. There simply isn't much of a statistical difference. All modern vehicles are reliable. There is a bit more variation in the 3 yr vehicle dependability survey which is a better yardstick but even there the best vehicles are still going to average one problem in 3 years and the worst might be 2 which may still result in only one dealer visit for warranty work. It's no longer a reason to completely discount a brand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 1 hour ago, akirby said: Explorer sales dropped from 445k in 2000 all the way to 137K in 2007 - before the recession hit overall sales. People shifted away from BOF SUVs and moved to crossovers. Fake news. Exactly. It's exactly why Edge was created to begin with. For once Ford was ahead of the curve and properly read where the market was heading. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 30 minutes ago, akirby said: I've been saying this for years. There simply isn't much of a statistical difference. All modern vehicles are reliable. There is a bit more variation in the 3 yr vehicle dependability survey which is a better yardstick but even there the best vehicles are still going to average one problem in 3 years and the worst might be 2 which may still result in only one dealer visit for warranty work. It's no longer a reason to completely discount a brand. I hate taking that chart seriously personally because it takes into account things like infotainment functionality. Just because you end up with a glitchy infotainment system doesn't mean the quality is awful, they’re complex electronics, it's bound to happen. It doesn't mean the car won't serve it's overall purpose and get you from point A to point B and beyond. Hell, I'm 3 for 4 on Ford infotainment systems being glitchy and even if I wasn't an employee it wouldn't turn me off to the brand. Im apparently a rare bird who's actually reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 1 minute ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I hate taking that chart seriously personally because it takes into account things like infotainment functionality. I don't have a problem with the chart. I just think it shows dependability is pretty good across the board - especially when you consider some of the more common problems that aren't very serious and are usually easy to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 31 minutes ago, akirby said: I don't have a problem with the chart. I just think it shows dependability is pretty good across the board - especially when you consider some of the more common problems that aren't very serious and are usually easy to fix. So you were ok when Ford/Lincoln ratings were near the bottom because of the MFT issues despite the fact that there were few other complaints? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlghtjr90 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 8 hours ago, rperez817 said: based on a Volvo passenger car platform from the 1990s. At least it looked good especially for the 2015MY refresh with more rectangular headlights, and using the Volvo's S80 platform should've lessened the potential quality issues. 5 hours ago, jcartwright99 said: I don't see the Explorer overheating and grenading their transmissions. I actually wish you are right.. We'll wait for the survey results - the JD Power IQS is the earliest thing we can get, followed by CR reports, then followed by my favorite 3rd year VDS from JD Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kev-Mo said: Nobody can ever tell the difference between 70 problems per 100 vehicles and 83 problems per 100 vehicles. Since a single consumer can't experience 7 tenths of a problem, both Kia and Ford round to approx 1 problem per vehicle. Rankings in this manner are a useless way to rate reliability, to the point you are splitting hairs to put one above or below the other. For that matter, the entire chart rounds up or down to 1 problem per vehicle - in the real world, the entire chart is statistical tie. No....not the one's listed towards the bottom. You don't even need this chart to know some of those brands listed in the bottom quarter of the chart are bad news. In addition-most buyers are going to see (and draw their opinions from) headlines about recalls than they are this chart. Alfa and Land Rovers are notorious for issues. Edited April 10, 2020 by CKNSLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: So you were ok when Ford/Lincoln ratings were near the bottom because of the MFT issues despite the fact that there were few other complaints? Was I ok? Sure because it still wasn’t a huge statistical difference either way. Of course the people who only look at relative rankings said the sky was falling. I was saying that the dependability was even better when you consider some of those problems were things like MFT. I agree those aren’t the same as Powertrain problems, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 I honestly think they need to break quality surveys down into 2 pieces, the actual car and software interface you use. Ripping cars because "the screen wasn't as fast as my ipad" is infuriating. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 1 hour ago, jcartwright99 said: I honestly think they need to break quality surveys down into 2 pieces, the actual car and software interface you use. Ripping cars because "the screen wasn't as fast as my ipad" is infuriating. J.D. Power IQS is a 233 question survey divided into 8 problem categories. At a high level, the problems reported by respondents are 2 types. Defects/malfunctions Design related problems The "problems per 100 vehicles" numbers reported by J.D. Power for IQS press release combines both 1 and 2. By contrast, the plant quality awards use only the defects/malfunctions part of the IQS data. Here are the plant quality awards for 2019. Toyota and BMW have done especially well in this area over the past 5 years. A Toyota plant won the Platinum Award in 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, and 2014. BMW won that award in 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Again - if the dealer finds issues and corrects during dealer prep they don’t show up. So it’s impossible to say for sure how many left the factory with defects. It is a good measure of customer satisfaction though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 I asked a Ford dealer why they don’t correct minor issues like panel alignment, etc., when they receive a vehicle from Ford, and he told me the customer has to complain about something in order to have it covered by warranty, otherwise the dealership runs the risk of not getting paid by Ford for the corrective work. I don’t know if this is true or not, but if it is, it needs to change to prevent perspective buyers from seeing these issues and subsequently impacting quality perception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 It’s easy to see why they do that. An unscrupulous dealer could rack up big bucks fabricating defects. However I do agree they need to be able to fix noticeable defects before it goes on the lot. They do get paid for dealer prep which should cover small things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 Motor Trend wrote another follow-up article to the original 9 vehicle test. This time, they compared the 2 U.S. domestic company competitors head to head, Chevy Traverse vs. Ford Explorer. https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019-chevrolet-traverse-vs-2020-ford-explorer/ Bad news first: Both the 2020 Ford Explorer and 2019 Chevrolet Traverse feature a number of off-putting compromises. Neither is revolutionary on the road, and both come with interiors that must be better in order to justify their price points. Luckily, if you're a parent in need of an American three-row SUV—in both name and country of origin—with a lot of room for the kiddos, one of these three-row family haulers is still much better than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 On 4/15/2020 at 6:40 PM, rperez817 said: Motor Trend wrote another follow-up article to the original 9 vehicle test. This time, they compared the 2 U.S. domestic company competitors head to head, Chevy Traverse vs. Ford Explorer. https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019-chevrolet-traverse-vs-2020-ford-explorer/ You mean this- Although both of these vehicles have their obvious faults, the Traverse is easier to live with and easier to use than the new Explorer. We don't believe in inconvenient personal transport here at MotorTrend, and the Explorer is too difficult to recommend because of its glaring faults. The Chevrolet is the more complete package and wins this comparison because of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 2 hours ago, CKNSLS said: You mean this- Although both of these vehicles have their obvious faults, the Traverse is easier to live with and easier to use than the new Explorer. We don't believe in inconvenient personal transport here at MotorTrend, and the Explorer is too difficult to recommend because of its glaring faults. The Chevrolet is the more complete package and wins this comparison because of it. I know my Explorer is a Sport, but what the heck does easier to use mean? First off, at the basic level, it’s vehicle, and you get in and drive it. That wasn’t even worth reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 10 hours ago, tbone said: I know my Explorer is a Sport, but what the heck does easier to use mean? I think Motor Trend is referring mainly to Sync 3 infotainment system in the Explorer XLT they evaluated. The testers had a lot of trouble getting it to work properly, particularly Apple Carplay. The article said the following. "In my four days with the car, CarPlay crashed eight times, most frequently right after startup—and that was just while I was driving it. Features editor Christian Seabaugh reported similar problems on his drives." In other areas, Motor Trend suggests that usability for Explorer is comparable to Traverse. In the case of 3rd row access, they said Explorer's rear seat was easier to fold down. " Because both of our testers came with the optional captain's chairs, getting into the third row was relatively easy. That said, the Traverse has a handle that lets you fold down one of the second-row seats on just the right side of the car, like an old school minivan. That's not only nonsensical, it's lazy. The Ford's seats are easier to fold down, too. But once you get in the back you're cramped in the Ford, whereas the Chevy's back row feels almost cavernous." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Ultimately the public is going to decide what’s best for them. Is the Explorer perfect, no, but it certainly isn’t the POS the mags have suggested it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 On 4/18/2020 at 12:28 PM, rperez817 said: I think Motor Trend is referring mainly to Sync 3 infotainment system in the Explorer XLT they evaluated. The testers had a lot of trouble getting it to work properly, particularly Apple Carplay. The article said the following. In other areas, Motor Trend suggests that usability for Explorer is comparable to Traverse. In the case of 3rd row access, they said Explorer's rear seat was easier to fold down. I'm not giving them a click to read it, but I doubt they moved the 2nd row seats forward on their tracks, which would give the 3rd row more room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, rmc523 said: I'm not giving them a click to read it, but I doubt they moved the 2nd row seats forward on their tracks, which would give the 3rd row more room. Yea-but since the third row in SUVs/CUVs for most owners are "kiddie seats" the infotaiment system is more important............... Edited April 19, 2020 by CKNSLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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