Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

That's true, but the same can be said about the conventional and PowerBoost versions of F-150. And F-150 Lightning is a better product all around than those. As Motor Trend says below, whatever demerits the current gen F-150 Lightning has, it's still a game changing pickup truck and the most important new product introduction from Ford in the 21st century thus far.

 

 

 

I would say the maverick is the most important Ford product this century. Takes electrification, but offers it in a unique way that people can easily afford. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by DeluxeStang

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

So you think regular F150 and Superduty designs are generic/bland?  Or are you just comparing them to other BEVs?  

Other BEV truck offerings like the Rivian R1T which does the best at balancing truck user needs and an acceptable form factor with eye catching performance and tech. But Ford's other truck offerings as well. These last few decades especially, Ford's ICE trucks have been game changing. Each generation has made a considerable leap and offered best in class everything. Then their EV truck comes out, and it's specs, pricing, performance and design all fall into the good, but not amazing category. Just felt like a bit of a let down. The best thing about the current lightning is the onboard charging system, everything else is kinda lackluster imo. 

[mackinaw]

4 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

...... Then their EV truck comes out, and it's specs, pricing, performance and design all fall into the good, but not amazing category. Just felt like a bit of a let down. The best thing about the current lightning is the onboard charging system, everything else is kinda lackluster imo. 

 

But you can buy the Lightning right now.  The Cybertruck and Silverado have just started limited production, and only certain (top end) models.  The Ram and Toyota BEV full-size trucks are still years away.  Being the first to market (of the OEM's) puts you in the public eye and gives you free PR.  Don't discount that.

[DeluxeStang]

40 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

That's why it's being replaced in another year and a half or whatever it is.  The current is a stopgap, purposely using a lot of existing components to help them get it out the door.

 

 

I think once the next-gen model arrives ("Thunder" if you will......), I think we'll see the current Lightning stay in the lineup as the "classic work" version and potentially offer other bed sizes, while the "Thunder" will be an all-out more controversial looking take.  That way you appeal to both sets of customers - those that want the more traditional type and those that want futuristic.  And then down the road, maybe we'll see the more traditional version go away.

That's exactly what I would do. It's unknown if that's what Ford is planning on doing currently. We can't get a straight answer. I've heard some people say this thunder is the replacement for the lightning, implying it'll be Ford's only full sized ev truck. But we've seen other people say it'll be its own truck outside of the lightning/f-150. 

 

It seems like T3 shares basically nothing with the gas powered f-150, and that development of the next gen ICE f-150 is its own thing. Maybe the 2nd gen lighting remains as an EV developed on the ICE'd based platform like the current lightning, and t3 is sold alongside it as the ground up design. 

[DeluxeStang]

3 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

But you can buy the Lightning right now.  The Cybertruck and Silverado have just started limited production, and only certain (top end) models.  The Ram and Toyota BEV full-size trucks are still years away.  Being the first to market (of the OEM's) puts you in the public eye and gives you free PR.  Don't discount that.

I know, but you can also buy a Rivian right now. Everytime I see a Rivian, I stare at it, it's just a masterful piece of design and engineering. The lightning is good for a first time ev, but it doesn't have that class leading quality that all of Ford's ICE trucks possess imo. Ford trucks are supposed to be like a cheat code that breaks the game because they're so powerful and impressive. I just don't feel that with lightning. 

[rmc523]

20 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

That's exactly what I would do. It's unknown if that's what Ford is planning on doing currently. We can't get a straight answer. I've heard some people say this thunder is the replacement for the lightning, implying it'll be Ford's only full sized ev truck. But we've seen other people say it'll be its own truck outside of the lightning/f-150. 

 

It seems like T3 shares basically nothing with the gas powered f-150, and that development of the next gen ICE f-150 is its own thing. Maybe the 2nd gen lighting remains as an EV developed on the ICE'd based platform like the current lightning, and t3 is sold alongside it as the ground up design. 

 

Another argument in favor of this approach is they built that separate section of the plant (and expanded it) just to make this Lightning.  I doubt they're going to want to gut that so soon.  They can continue building this current model (with updated styling as needed) without affecting T3 Thunder production, which will be at BOC.

[akirby]

41 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

I know, but you can also buy a Rivian right now. Everytime I see a Rivian, I stare at it, it's just a masterful piece of design and engineering. The lightning is good for a first time ev, but it doesn't have that class leading quality that all of Ford's ICE trucks possess imo. Ford trucks are supposed to be like a cheat code that breaks the game because they're so powerful and impressive. I just don't feel that with lightning. 

It’s targeted at traditional truck buyers, not the gee whiz gizmos crowd.  Everything that makes F150 class leading also works for Lightning.  It’s a F150 with a different powertrain.  I think it stays as a work oriented BEV while T3 goes after the lifestyle buyer.

 

I think your expectations are vastly different than Ford’s target.

[Rick73]

57 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

It seems like T3 shares basically nothing with the gas powered f-150, and that development of the next gen ICE f-150 is its own thing. Maybe the 2nd gen lighting remains as an EV developed on the ICE'd based platform like the current lightning, and t3 is sold alongside it as the ground up design. 

Isn’t Ford essentially doing the same with newest Transit Custom vans, which are offered with ICE, PHEV, and BEV powertrains?  Maybe with F-150 they separate ICE and HEV or a PHEV from T-3  BEV?  I don’t see enough advantage to having two BEV trucks of similar size and capabilities.

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, mackinaw said:

 

But you can buy the Lightning right now.  The Cybertruck and Silverado have just started limited production, and only certain (top end) models.  The Ram and Toyota BEV full-size trucks are still years away.  Being the first to market (of the OEM's) puts you in the public eye and gives you free PR.  Don't discount that.

Agree, though I’m not sure being first necessarily leads to long-term success.  GM’s EV1 (though limited production vehicle) was first modern BEV as far as I know, but it wasn’t until Tesla and Nissan Leaf came out years later with much better products that BEVs started being accepted as practical options.  One can easily argue GM blew a great opportunity, but perhaps being first with inferior battery technology cost them long-term. To be clear, not saying Lightning is inferior.

[silvrsvt]

5 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Isn’t Ford essentially doing the same with newest Transit Custom vans, which are offered with ICE, PHEV, and BEV powertrains?  Maybe with F-150 they separate ICE and HEV or a PHEV from T-3  BEV?  I don’t see enough advantage to having two BEV trucks of similar size and capabilities.

 

The T3 will far more efficient then the Lightning will ever be. The Lightning is good "training wheels" for someone who is a more traditional truck buyer
 

T3 will be better for people who use their trucks as cars. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by silvrsvt

[rperez817]

26 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

The Lightning is good "training wheels" for someone who is a more traditional truck buyer
 

T3 will be better for people who use their trucks as cars. 

 

Ford is in a good position with the expectation that both products will be in its lineup for at least a few years. When Ford introduced F-150 Lightning in 2021, a Cox Automotive survey concluded that people in the market for a pickup truck found Lightning more appealing than competing BEV pickup trucks from GM, Rivian, and Tesla. This should still be the case today, and hopefully also in a few years when T3 comes out.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by rperez817

[Rick73]

Electrification percentage numbers on far right column, with exception of Tesla, are still too low (through 2021 data) to predict future trends with any real accuracy. 

 

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Ford is in a good position with the expectation that both products will be in its lineup for at least a few years.

Cost of new T3 design may be lower, but energy efficiency won’t be that different compared to existing Lightning.  This begs the question of what exactly would make it advantageous to have both trucks competing simultaneously?  If T3 is better as it should be given it’s a newer design, why keep Lightning around?  Are you thinking due to traditional truck appearance or body on frame?

[rperez817]

 

43 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

If T3 is better as it should be given it’s a newer design, why keep Lightning around?  Are you thinking due to traditional truck appearance or body on frame?

 

Both to a certain extent. A certain segment of pickup truck buyers will be drawn by the combination of traditional truck appearance and BOF construction. It goes back to Motor Trend's statement about bridging "the gulf between the powertrain of the future and the pickup of today".

 

Ford's biggest strength in terms of product is pickup trucks, and to achieve its goal of 100% ZEV by 2035 (hopefully sooner, though) in all "major markets", it will need a BEV pickup truck lineup that appeals to almost everyone. Simultaneously offering original F-150 Lightning and T3 in a few years should help Ford achieve that.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Cost of new T3 design may be lower, but energy efficiency won’t be that different compared to existing Lightning.  This begs the question of what exactly would make it advantageous to have both trucks competing simultaneously?  If T3 is better as it should be given it’s a newer design, why keep Lightning around?  Are you thinking due to traditional truck appearance or body on frame?

T3 will be more aerodynamic and probably a lot lighter with a lower tow and payload rating.  Lifestyle truck vs work truck.  Totally different styling and different markets.  There is plenty of room for both.

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

T3 will be more aerodynamic and probably a lot lighter with a lower tow and payload rating.  Lifestyle truck vs work truck.  Totally different styling and different markets.  There is plenty of room for both.

Are you thinking smaller like the size of a Rivian, rather than comparable to new Silverado EV?  Or the announced RAM EV pickup?  Both of these new trucks have or will have over 200 kWh of battery capacity; hence not lightweights.

 

Looking at EPA ratings show that Rivian is not much more efficient than Lightning, if at all.  They both produce in range of 200~220 grams CO2 per mile where I live, which is same as  US average.

 

The new massive Silverado EV work truck should be about same or worse based on EPA MPGe ratings.  More importantly, if T3 is smaller like size of Rivian, how will buyers compare it to Silverado and RAM BEVs?  That’s a risk unto itself.

 

 

For what it’s worth, Maverick Hybrid is rated 237 grams CO2 per mile, so essentially as effective at combating Global Warming.  For those who don’t actually need large BEV pickup capabilities, they are not doing the planet a favor by driving a huge and inefficient BEV.  And in real world it’s much worse than that, but I won’t beat that dead horse again.  In my opinion downsizing and efficiency should be prioritized.  Most environmentalist seem focused on electrification and not the bigger picture.

[rperez817]

5 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

 In my opinion downsizing and efficiency should be prioritized. 

 

I am of the same opinion as you Rick73. But most American consumers don't share our priorities. One of my friends from Germany visited me in Fort Worth a few years ago and marveled at how many full-size pickup trucks were used as single person commuter vehicles here. I explained to him that Americans nowadays don't think of pickup trucks primarily as commercial vehicles.

 

It should be a lot easier to transition existing owners of inefficient ICE full size pickup trucks and SUVs, particularly the gasoline/diesel "superusers" mentioned earlier in this thread topic, to much more efficient BEV full-size pickup trucks and SUVs than to have them "downsize" to an even more efficient vehicle category that they will likely find less appealing.

 

If Ford is able to get BEV versions of its entire pickup truck lineup from Maverick to F-Series Super Duty brought to market before competitors, it will be in a very good position.

[akirby]

52 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Are you thinking smaller like the size of a Rivian, rather than comparable to new Silverado EV?  Or the announced RAM EV pickup?  Both of these new trucks have or will have over 200 kWh of battery capacity; hence not lightweights.

 

Looking at EPA ratings show that Rivian is not much more efficient than Lightning, if at all.  They both produce in range of 200~220 grams CO2 per mile where I live, which is same as  US average.

 

I didn’t say light, just lighter than Lightning or Silverado.  Smaller overall, new lighter batteries, more aerodynamic, less towing and payload capacity but still capable.  Not sure why this is hard to comprehend.

[Rick73]

36 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

It should be a lot easier to transition existing owners of inefficient ICE full size pickup trucks and SUVs, particularly the gasoline/diesel "superusers" mentioned earlier in this thread topic, to much more efficient BEV full-size pickup trucks and SUVs than to have them "downsize" to an even more efficient vehicle category that they will likely find less appealing.

We won’t know how easy it may be if auto industry doesn’t try, and particularly if government doesn’t care enough to discourage waste by changing incentives.

 

I believe younger people in particular are changing.  As an example, 10 years ago large Class A motorhomes that average less than 8 MPG were quite popular and sold at roughly 50% of market share, with the rest mostly going to Class C cutaways that don’t do much better than 8 MPG.  Van campers made up a small percentage of motorized RVs.

 

Today Class B van campers which average over 16 MPG outsell Class A gas guzzlers.  And it’s not due to lower costs alone because many cost as much or more than their larger Class A counterparts.  There has been a general downsizing trend in motorized RVs for various reasons, including ease of driving, freedom to go and camp in places larger units can’t, etc.

 

Changing mindset takes time and effort, and 9,990-pound GVWR BEV pickups like Silverado will make it harder.  Not only are they themselves often more wasteful (when size is not needed), but if it prevents some buyers from downsizing for fear of getting hurt or killed in an accident with one of these oversized vehicles, then we pay the penalty twice.

[Rick73]

13 minutes ago, akirby said:

I didn’t say light, just lighter than Lightning or Silverado.  Smaller overall, new lighter batteries, more aerodynamic, less towing and payload capacity but still capable.  Not sure why this is hard to comprehend.

Because pickup truck market has been so competitive, that everyone compares Ford, GM, and RAM products against each other directly.  It’s not about comprehending, but rather expecting Ford to try matching or exceeding Silverado capabilities.  That’s what has happened in past, so what I expect to happen again.  Just a guess on my part.  Hope you are correct though.

[rperez817]

13 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

We won’t know how easy it may be if auto industry doesn’t try, and particularly if government doesn’t care enough to discourage waste by changing incentives.

 

Changing mindset takes time and effort, and 9,990-pound GVWR BEV pickups like Silverado will make it harder.  Not only are they themselves often more wasteful (when size is not needed), but if it prevents some buyers from downsizing for fear of getting hurt or killed in an accident with one of these oversized vehicles, then we pay the penalty twice.

 

Good points Rick73. The wastefulness and safety aspects you mentioned are certainly issues with the popularity of ICE full-size pickup trucks. Consumer Reports wrote an article about these issues a couple years ago. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/the-hidden-dangers-of-big-trucks/

 

Remains to be seen if the transition to all-electric vehicles in the full-size pickup truck and SUV categories will address these in any meaningful way long-term.

 

"Trucks could look less tough, but you don't want to be the one to make your truck look soft," says Tyson Jominy, vice president for data and analytics at J.D. Power. He estimates that an automaker might make four to five times more money on a pickup than a sedan, partly because manufacturing a truck is simpler and because buyers will pay more for a pickup. "You can charge a lot for the capability, for the image."

Automakers are also selling a lifestyle, says Angie Schmitt, founder and principal at 3MPH Planning and Consulting, a firm focused on pedestrian safety. She points to ads with trucks at construction sites, hauling massive trailers, and racing over sand dunes. "They're not hiding the fact that they're marketing these trucks as being really macho and a display of masculinity or prowess," she says. "That's a big part of the marketing, and I think that it works."

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Because pickup truck market has been so competitive, that everyone compares Ford, GM, and RAM products against each other directly.  It’s not about comprehending, but rather expecting Ford to try matching or exceeding Silverado capabilities.  That’s what has happened in past, so what I expect to happen again.  Just a guess on my part.  Hope you are correct though.

 

Back in the 50’s and 60’s, it was the cubic inch/horsepower wars.  Every model year somebody brought out and engine that was bigger and more powerful than the other guy.

 

Now manufacturers are benchmarking the other guy when it comes to the range of batteries, cost, size, how long to charge, cold weather performance, etc.  It will be fun watching the manufacturers trying to leapfrog the competition.  This should be good for the consumer.

[rmc523]

13 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Cost of new T3 design may be lower, but energy efficiency won’t be that different compared to existing Lightning.  This begs the question of what exactly would make it advantageous to have both trucks competing simultaneously?  If T3 is better as it should be given it’s a newer design, why keep Lightning around?  Are you thinking due to traditional truck appearance or body on frame?

 

 

Says who?  Ford isn't going to announce all the details on it to let the competition know what they have in store for it....

 

It'd be advantageous because:

1) from Ford's perspective, the existing Lightning is already paid for and costs can be spread out over more years than just the current 2-3 if it was fully replaced right away.

2) from a customer perspective, those that prefer a more traditional truck layout vs. a more controversial "Thunder" have that option - a traditional model will likely appeal more to work/business customers

3) they can piggyback Lightning refreshes from both ICE F-150 and Thunder - it can pull components from ICE for styling/parts, and can get more updated tech from Thunder (unless they're able to lower costs on existing stuff and offer Lightning at lower costs closer to ICE down the road by using "older" tech).

 

---

 

And you guys can buy your Smart car EV.  If I want a bigger vehicle, I'm going to get a bigger vehicle.

 

IIRC, y'all don't have the smallest vehicles available either if downsizing is so important.

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

T3 will be more aerodynamic and probably a lot lighter with a lower tow and payload rating.  Lifestyle truck vs work truck.  Totally different styling and different markets.  There is plenty of room for both.

I agree, which is why I'll be confused if t3 replaces the lightning and becomes the only full sized EV truck Ford offers. Which could be a possibility, again, no-one seems to be able to tell us if it'll be the replacement for the more conventional lightning, or merely an additional model. If they're smart, it'll be the later. 

 

They boasted about how making the lightning more traditional appealed to diehard truck buyers more. Now they're boasting about how radically different t3 is compared to any truck that came before. Wouldn't make sense if both products were for the same exact demographic. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Because pickup truck market has been so competitive, that everyone compares Ford, GM, and RAM products against each other directly.  It’s not about comprehending, but rather expecting Ford to try matching or exceeding Silverado capabilities.  That’s what has happened in past, so what I expect to happen again.  Just a guess on my part.  Hope you are correct though.

I don’t believe for a second that one brand having 20 more horsepower makes any difference whatsoever on sales especially when both are over 450 hp or over 1000 for diesels.  It’s all about PR and bragging rights and if you can afford it that’s fine.  But Camaro almost always had more power than mustang and better track performance.  That didn’t make it a better car or more profitable.