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rperez817

Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related

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Per the suggestions discussed in Stray Kat's thread in the Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum as well Stray Kat's recommendations in the Site Feedback area, this thread topic is to discuss anything involving EV at Ford Motor Company that isn't already in another part of this site.

 

Examples.

  • Research & Development 
  • New Product Announcements
  • Collaboration between Ford and other companies on EV related products and services
  • Spy photos of upcoming Ford EV
  • Upcoming events that involve Ford EV (auto shows, test drive events, etc.)
  • Tips and tricks from owners of Ford EV
  • Plant and other facility news (both existing plants transitioning to EV as well as greenfield facilities such as the Ford campus in West Tennessee)
  • Supply chain for EV components at Ford

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I'll get started with this R&D announcement. Ford is working with Purdue University to develop a method to cool high-current charging cables using liquid to vapor phase change. A patent is pending.

Ford and Purdue Patent Charging Station Cable for Research That Could Lead to Recharging EVs as Quickly as Gas Station Fill-Ups | Ford Media Center

 

Ford and Purdue University researchers have taken an important early step to make recharging EVs simple and time saving.

Through a research alliance, researchers from both groups are working to develop a new, patent-pending charging station cable that could combine with in-development vehicle charging technology, making it even easier for people to transition to EVs with seamless re-charging.

“Today, chargers are limited in how quickly they can charge an EV’s battery due to the danger of overheating. Charging faster requires more current to travel through the charging cable,” said Michael Degner, senior technical leader, Ford Research and Advanced Engineering. “The higher the current, the greater the amount of heat that has to be removed to keep the cable operational.”

Purdue researchers are focusing on an alternative cooling method by designing a charging cable that can deliver an increased current. The cable uses liquid as an active cooling agent, which can help extract more heat from the cable by changing phase from liquid to vapor – the key difference between this and current liquid-cooled technology on the market.

This innovation could one day deliver significantly more power than today’s leading systems to re-charge electric vehicles, making the potential of faster re-charging times possible if vehicle charging and other technology enhancements are made in parallel. Ultimately, this could eventually lead to re-charging EVs as quickly as conventional gas station fill-ups.

 

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I didn't realize that you promoted yourself to the roll of moderator of this form....you may suggest this to the moderators, or ask the forum owner if they could make a new forum for "Ford EV vehicles" and "Competitor EV vehicles", but this is a little presumptuous of you, don't you think? Just my .02 cents worth.

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2 hours ago, twintornados said:

I didn't realize that you promoted yourself to the roll of moderator of this form....you may suggest this to the moderators, or ask the forum owner if they could make a new forum for "Ford EV vehicles" and "Competitor EV vehicles", but this is a little presumptuous of you, don't you think? Just my .02 cents worth.

Moderator suggested it……

1051106F-C1BF-44C2-916A-34FD159BBD60.jpeg

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3 hours ago, twintornados said:

I didn't realize that you promoted yourself to the roll of moderator of this form....you may suggest this to the moderators, or ask the forum owner if they could make a new forum for "Ford EV vehicles" and "Competitor EV vehicles", but this is a little presumptuous of you, don't you think? Just my .02 cents worth.


Lighten up Francis.  This isn’t a new Forum it’s just a new topic.   Anybody can create a new topic at any time as long as it’s on topic and this is on topic.

 

If there are enough unique topics for discussion then the site admin might create a sub forum.  Moderators can’t do that.

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Cooling by changing phase from liquid to vapor.

 

Evaporation.  It’s called evaporation.  Interesting application but not a new concept.

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A catchall EV thread seems like a way for individual articles/news to get lost with too broad a subject.......this isn't like the catchall Bronco thread where it's a single vehicle and news about it.  I just don't see why EV topics can't just be put in the general section as individual topics like normal, but if this is what people want....

 

Alternatively why not just put EV NEWS: ___(subject/article name)_____ in the topic title for any EV related posting in the general section so it'll come up more readily search wise?

Edited by rmc523

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29 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Alternatively why not just put EV NEWS: ___(subject/article name)_____ in the topic title for any EV related posting in the general section so it'll come up more readily search wise?

 

Thank you for that suggestion rmc523 sir, that's a great idea.

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How many members here would actually lay down their hard earned money for a BEV? 
 

Personally I could easily justify at least one of the two daily drivers in our family be a BEV. 

 

If the Maverick was an EV I would have already ordered one. 

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I could easily have a BEV as a daily driver since I almost never drive more than 60 miles a day and I can charge at home.

 

No way I’m going 100% BEV until I can get a 250 mile charge in 10-15 minutes without long waits and within 20 miles or so of my location wherever that might be.  Until then I’ll stick with ICE or hybrids for at least one vehicle.

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4 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

How many members here would actually lay down their hard earned money for a BEV? 
 

Personally I could easily justify at least one of the two daily drivers in our family be a BEV. 

 

If the Maverick was an EV I would have already ordered one. 

 

If I were running Ford, AND THIS IS JUST WHAT I WOULD DO before anyone screams, I would not put another Develop dollar towards ICE with maybe an exception for some F-Series models.

Every new vehicle Ford/Lincoln released from now on would be an EV. I'd go all in. It is feasible, we can innovative enough to make the turn around that quick and drastic while bringing the public with us. 

 

I am a Mustang Bullitt and 351 Bronco owner, so I'm sad to see the V8 and manual go... but it's time. 

We'll still have what Ford has built over the last 100+ years in the world for us to enjoy, albeit with synthetic fuel...

 

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I just can't see this being sustainable long term unless there's some major development in battery life, charging and components vs the current mechanics of liquid fuel. With limited resources for battery development and the environmental issues that goes with large amounts of batteries for power, is it really viable for vehicles, say a Ford F-450 or a vehicle that requires heavy towing like trailers?

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21 hours ago, akirby said:

Cooling by changing phase from liquid to vapor.

 

Cooling going from solid to vapor via 1985 standard....a comedy but, this subject made me think of this movie.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

How many members here would actually lay down their hard earned money for a BEV? 
 

Personally I could easily justify at least one of the two daily drivers in our family be a BEV. 

 

If the Maverick was an EV I would have already ordered one. 

 

My wife and I have 2 BEV. A 2018 Tesla Model S I bought used, and a 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E (my wife's car) that we pre-ordered and bought new.

 

Future Maverick EV or Ranger EV will be what my family's landscaping business buys for its next work truck, after the 2019 Ranger we have now is ready for replacement.

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8 hours ago, Willwll313wll said:

If I were running Ford, AND THIS IS JUST WHAT I WOULD DO before anyone screams, I would not put another Develop dollar towards ICE with maybe an exception for some F-Series models.

Every new vehicle Ford/Lincoln released from now on would be an EV. I'd go all in. It is feasible, we can innovative enough to make the turn around that quick and drastic while bringing the public with us. 

 

Your strategy is the right one Willwll313wll sir. There is no good reason for any capital expenditures on new ICE development at this point. Fortunately, Ford seems to be "all in" with BEV, or at least ZEV in general. During the COP26 conference recently, Ford set 2035 as its benchmark for a 100% ZEV product lineup across all major markets. In all likelihood, Ford will reach that milestone well before 2035 with the way things are going technologically, politically, and financially in the global automotive industry.

 

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8 hours ago, Willwll313wll said:

 

If I were running Ford, AND THIS IS JUST WHAT I WOULD DO before anyone screams, I would not put another Develop dollar towards ICE with maybe an exception for some F-Series models.

Every new vehicle Ford/Lincoln released from now on would be an EV. I'd go all in.


That’s somewhat short sighted and not necessarily a good business decision.   The profits to invest in EVs are coming from ICE vehicles for the next several years.  You don’t walk away from sure profits for future promises, but you do need to be prepared for the future shift.  That’s why they cancelled cars so they could focus on both the money makers now and invest in future BEVs at the same time.

 

I do think anything new has to at least be a hybrid. I think what Ford is doing with F150 is smart.  Offer ICE, HEV and BEV versions and let the market dictate the mix.  That maximizes profit and allows them to take advantage of wherever the market goes.  I think you’ll see the same with explorer and escape and eventually Ranger, Bronco and Maverick.

 

This is a phased transition not a flash cut regardless of what the politicians say.

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I've got a Mustang Mach E in addition to my older Expedition. It's a fantastic daily driver and has excellent range for 95% of my miles. That remaining 5% usually involves driving to Chicago or Louisville, and while it's not as easy as pulling into a random gas station, it's certainly manageable. If I didn't need a second Expedition-class vehicle anyway, I could see myself being EV-only, and renting an ICE for long road trips for the near future. It won't be any different than renting a Home Depot truck instead of piling bags of manure into the back of my Expedition.

 

Although I've got a 2022 on order and plan on keeping it as long as I've had my 2004, I'm going to be really interested to see what the inevitable future all electric Expedition brings. On Sunday I ran into two big, giant electric Hummers at the St. Clair Shores, Michigan, Electrify America charging station. They were both plugged in to 350 kva chargers, and the one next to my Mach E was pulling 290 kva at 83%. If I could get that in the Mach E, then I'd be good to go in 10 minutes. In any case, by time the electric Expedition is available, I'm hopeful that there will be a whole lot more charging infrastructure. My Mach E is perfect for its use cases, but I pull a trailer and take long road trips with the Expedition.

 

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14 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

How many members here would actually lay down their hard earned money for a BEV? 
 

Personally I could easily justify at least one of the two daily drivers in our family be a BEV. 

 

If the Maverick was an EV I would have already ordered one. 


We're considering it for GF's next car. Only issue I haven't really looked into yet is if we need to upgrade the electric service on the house and what the cost would be (I believe MD has or had some kind of refund/grant available for it). Bronco sport is also on her short list. I think they're cool, but PHEV or BEV make more sense for her daily commute $$ wise.

Lightning would pull my work trailer and likely only need to be charged once a week with the usual route, but I'm concerned about the IRS in a 100% towing scenario. I might hold out for a superduty version if that's somewhere in the pipeline. Currently running a 2010 6.4 with a recent engine replacement, so it still has a good bit of life left in it (I hope).

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Datatrek Research opinion: Ford (and GM also) should spin off its current EV operations into a new company. Breaking up GM and Ford - DataTrek Research

 

Regular readers will know that I (Nick) spent the 1990s as the senior auto analyst at First Boston/Credit Suisse

Putting on that old hat for today’s note: if I were banking Ford or GM right now, I would be pushing hard for them to spin off their electric vehicle operations

The basic idea would be this:
  • Create an EV “newco”. This would include all the parts of the business relevant to winning in an all-electric vehicle future: R&D, product design, parts sourcing, and assembly.
  • Get an outside CEO and CFO – people from the tech world, but with experience in design and manufacturing. Staff the rest of the organization from the top-performing ranks of existing management.
  • Recruit a strong, independent board and name an outside Chairperson. The individuals here should come from venture capital and technology, with preference given to people who have built disruptive businesses.
  • Sell 19.9 percent of this company in an initial public offering for, say $10 billion. That’s a good-enough discount to the current comps and will assure strong aftermarket price action. Newco gets the $10 bn for general corporate purposes.

Now, here’s the punchline: GM and Ford will almost certainly NOT spin off their electric vehicle operations even though there is a compelling case to do so. Maybe we’re wrong on that. Maybe managements will rise to the challenge or be pushed to action by activist shareholders. It’s never happened before (remember Ross Perot and Kirk Kerkorian?), but you never know.

And that, in a nutshell, is why current equity valuations for Tesla, Rivian, et al are so amazingly high right now. The market is betting that GM and Ford will not break off their EV operations. This will leave them at such a disadvantage that they will eventually fail. Yes, this is a big leap of logic and yes, GM and Ford still have time left on the clock. But as for a dramatic corporate remake that reflects the existential challenges they face … We’re not holding our breath.

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Datatrek Research opinion: Ford (and GM also) should spin off its current EV operations into a new company. Breaking up GM and Ford - DataTrek Research

 

 

 

 

Aka "let's pretend they're a different company to jump on the overvalued bandwagon".

 

That'd be stupid to split it off.

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47 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Aka "let's pretend they're a different company to jump on the overvalued bandwagon".

 

That'd be stupid to split it off.

Agreed.  The excerpt that rperez817 quoted from the article was enough to convince me that I didn’t want to waste my time reading the whole article.  

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Sure, let’s throw away 100+ years of high volume manufacturing experience, real world vehicle engineering experience, massive economies of scale on non EV specific components and 3000 showrooms and service centers.

 

In the end a vehicle is a vehicle regardless of powertrain and the things that make current EVs popular do not scale well.

 

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