Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related

[sullynd]

22 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

and therein lies the issue...one standard for ALL electric charging. This is where the Gov't "could" step in, but won't. Make one standard for charging. 

There pretty much is.  Even Nissan is moving to CCS. EA is abandoning CHAdeMO (there usually is one CHAdeMO handle at an EA site, the rest CCS).  You know why Tesla is opening their network to other brands?  There’s government money for charging stations tied to using industry standard connectors.  CCS has won. 

[bzcat]

1 hour ago, sullynd said:

There pretty much is.  Even Nissan is moving to CCS. EA is abandoning CHAdeMO (there usually is one CHAdeMO handle at an EA site, the rest CCS).  You know why Tesla is opening their network to other brands?  There’s government money for charging stations tied to using industry standard connectors.  CCS has won. 

 

US is pretty much the last market where Tesla still uses its proprietary charger. In every other major EV markets like Europe and China, Tesla has already switched to the local standard (CCS2 in EU, GB/T in China).

 

Not trying to be political here but the last Administration really fell on its face on a lot of basic regulatory functions. SAE is the automotive standard setting body in the US - there should have been a lot more regulatory support given to the CCS1 charging standard as soon as the standard was promulgated.  

 

The three globally accepted standards supported by all the OEMs (major markets using):

CCS1: US, Canada, Korea, Taiwan

CCS2: EU, UK, GCC, Australia

GB/T: China

 

CHAdeMo was only widely used in Japan and is not supported by all the OEMs. This is one of the reason Toyota was a late comer to EV... it didn't like the fact that Nissan was the dominant force behind CHAdeMo.

Edited November 29, 2021 by bzcat

[AGR]

5 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

US is pretty much the last market where Tesla still uses its proprietary charger. In every other major EV markets like Europe and China, Tesla has already switched to the local standard (CCS2 in EU, GB/T in China).

 

Not trying to be political here but the last Administration really fell on its face on a lot of basic regulatory functions. SAE is the automotive standard setting body in the US - there should have been a lot more regulatory support given to the CCS1 charging standard as soon as the standard was promulgated.  

 

The three globally accepted standards supported by all the OEMs (major markets using):

CCS1: US, Canada, Korea, Taiwan

CCS2: EU, UK, GCC, Australia

GB/T: China

 

CHAdeMo was only widely used in Japan and is not supported by all the OEMs. This is one of the reason Toyota was a late comer to EV... it didn't like the fact that Nissan was the dominant force behind CHAdeMo.

 

It's not just Tesla and EVs. The Euros force Apple to use standard USB ports as well.

[BoomerSooner]

On 11/19/2021 at 4:08 PM, silvrsvt said:

What is your normal commute that you do 80-90-95% of the time? 
 

I just checked the distance from Lawton to Dallas-it’s 197 miles one way. I’m sure after driving 3 hours or so, 20-30 minute break to charge up 80% or about 240 Or so miles of range isn’t too horrible with a Mach E ER. 

80% of the time an EV would work.  But I don't buy 80% of a car and I don't just drive 80% of the time and I don't want to be limited to 80% of my destinations or to make significant concessions (and, seriously, asking me for 30 minutes to charge on a business is not gonna happen).  Also, I don't usually make one-way trips, so we probably need to realistically double your 197 mile calculation.  Tulsa to Dallas is 250 miles.  One way.  4 1/2 hour drive largely at higher battery-draining speeds. Punctuated by a 30 minute charge break?  No thanks. Ever. But if others are willing to make that sacrifice, be my guest. That's why a plug-in hybrid would be my preference until faster charging (that doesn't damage the battery) and greater range (400, please) come online.  

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, BoomerSooner said:

greater range (400, please)

 

This aspect of BEV is already available, though not yet in a Ford product. Tesla Model S Dual Motor AWD has EPA est. range of 405 mi, and all versions of Lucid Air also exceed 400 mi. (406 mi. for Touring, 516 mi. for Grand Touring, and 520 mi. for Dream Edition).

 

In a few years, Ford should have at least 1 product with the 400+ mile range you are seeking. Technological advancements with BEV are very rapid.

[jpd80]

The point is that there a lot of buyers willing to buy EVs that do work for them and their situation, you’re not going to convince a non-buyer to purchase an EV when it doesn’t work for them. The most open buyers are those with two or more cars in a household, if one is a commuter vehicle, then maybe an EV or PHEV works in that situation 

 

I suspect those massive Chinese EV sales are are mostly (70%) being directed to online ride share companies that are vertically integrated - owned by the particular car company. So most selling cars to themselves…….

Edited December 2, 2021 by jpd80

[Sherminator98]

16 hours ago, BoomerSooner said:

80% of the time an EV would work.  But I don't buy 80% of a car and I don't just drive 80% of the time and I don't want to be limited to 80% of my destinations or to make significant concessions (and, seriously, asking me for 30 minutes to charge on a business is not gonna happen).  Also, I don't usually make one-way trips, so we probably need to realistically double your 197 mile calculation.  Tulsa to Dallas is 250 miles.  One way.  4 1/2 hour drive largely at higher battery-draining speeds. Punctuated by a 30 minute charge break?  No thanks. Ever. But if others are willing to make that sacrifice, be my guest. That's why a plug-in hybrid would be my preference until faster charging (that doesn't damage the battery) and greater range (400, please) come online.  

 

The point your missing is that you can rapidly recharge to 80% full with in 15-20 minutes of charging, getting that last 20% or so is much slower. Using the 305 mile range of the Mach E example, 80% would be 244 or so miles.

So you drive to Tulsa to Dallas-stop do your thing, which I'm assuming is longer then 30 minutes, plug your car in and you'll be able to get home. 

 

I'm also assuming BEVs generate power like hybrids do during breaking and slowing down to charge the batteries also. 

[akirby]

20 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The point your missing is that you can rapidly recharge to 80% full with in 15-20 minutes of charging, getting that last 20% or so is much slower. Using the 305 mile range of the Mach E example, 80% would be 244 or so miles.

So you drive to Tulsa to Dallas-stop do your thing, which I'm assuming is longer then 30 minutes, plug your car in and you'll be able to get home. 

 

I'm also assuming BEVs generate power like hybrids do during breaking and slowing down to charge the batteries also. 

It takes 45 minutes to go from 10%-80% on a fast charger.  And the chances of finding an available fast charger within walking distance of your destination (today) is pretty slim.  Can it be done?  Of course, but it’s not going to be convenient in most cases until we get more and faster chargers.

[rperez817]

40 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

I'm also assuming BEVs generate power like hybrids do during breaking and slowing down to charge the batteries also. 

 

Yes sir, all BEV have regenerative braking. On many BEV models, setting regen level to maximum enables one pedal driving where it's not necessary to use the brake pedal to slow the vehicle.

 

Example involving Mustang Mach-E.

 

[sullynd]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

It takes 45 minutes to go from 10%-80% on a fast charger.  And the chances of finding an available fast charger within walking distance of your destination (today) is pretty slim.  Can it be done?  Of course, but it’s not going to be convenient in most cases until we get more and faster chargers.

You don’t always have to charge to 80 (or 100) percent.  When on a trip if I stop at a charger I charge only as much as I need to get to my destination, plus some buffer.  People are used to “filling the tank” but that does not make sense at a BEV (If I only need to go to 50% to get to my destination the extra 30% is more cost and time for no real value).

[Sherminator98]

1 hour ago, sullynd said:

You don’t always have to charge to 80 (or 100) percent.  When on a trip if I stop at a charger I charge only as much as I need to get to my destination, plus some buffer.  People are used to “filling the tank” but that does not make sense at a BEV (If I only need to go to 50% to get to my destination the extra 30% is more cost and time for no real value).

 

That is the issue people are trying to argue. 

 

Just as an example, I drove to Wright Patterson AFB from my house...about 580 miles one way. I got about 300-325 miles per tank on my SHO. So I had to fill up 3-4 times before/during and after my trip.

If I used a Mach E Extended range RWD, I'd have to stop 3 times for a total of almost 2 hours added on to an already 9 hour drive one way. 

 

I get this is a bit on the extreme side of things, but in the grand scheme of things 300-400 miles in one day shouldn't be a big issue, because you normally stop for lunch/potty breaks/stretch out etc

[akirby]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

300-400 miles in one day shouldn't be a big issue, because you normally stop for lunch/potty breaks/stretch out etc

If every restaurant, rest area and shopping center had a charger within walking distance it wouldn’t be an issue.  As of now unless you’re really lucky you can’t charge and do other things at the same time.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, sullynd said:

You don’t always have to charge to 80 (or 100) percent.  When on a trip if I stop at a charger I charge only as much as I need to get to my destination, plus some buffer.  People are used to “filling the tank” but that does not make sense at a BEV (If I only need to go to 50% to get to my destination the extra 30% is more cost and time for no real value).

I get that and if you’re headed home where you can recharge overnight it makes sense.  But if I’m traveling 200+ miles then whether I charge now for 45 minutes or do it twice for 25 minutes is the same.

 

And this whole “recharging while eating” scenario only works if there is a charger within walking distance of the restaurant where I want to eat AND it’s not occupied AND it’s a time of day when I actually want to eat.

 

Again I’m not saying it can’t be done.  Of course it can.  But it’s damned inconvenient for most people and most trips until the public charging situation improves.  And people aren’t going to give up convenience until they’re forced to give it up.

[sullynd]

If I’m driving 200 miles I’m not charging. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, sullynd said:

If I’m driving 200 miles I’m not charging. 

Return trip - 400 miles round trip.

Edited December 2, 2021 by akirby

[Flying68]

A lot of the available EA charging stations are at Walmarts, and not necessarily near anything where you could eat/use the restroom.  The other issue is the lack of charging stations on rural interstates (I-70, I-80, I-90) through the central states.  They exist, but are often spaced out (even the Tesla supercharger sites aren't very plentiful).  There are almost 0 public chargers off of the interstate system in the central states, so traveling north/south is impractical, unless you are on I-25 or I-35.  Perhaps local utilities and the government could help subsidize by giving tax credits to existing gas stations and travel stops to install the necessary equipment for DC fast charging in those areas.  States should add them to rest stops as well.

[marc_05]

5 hours ago, Flying68 said:

A lot of the available EA charging stations are at Walmarts, and not necessarily near anything where you could eat/use the restroom.  The other issue is the lack of charging stations on rural interstates (I-70, I-80, I-90) through the central states.  They exist, but are often spaced out (even the Tesla supercharger sites aren't very plentiful).  There are almost 0 public chargers off of the interstate system in the central states, so traveling north/south is impractical, unless you are on I-25 or I-35.  Perhaps local utilities and the government could help subsidize by giving tax credits to existing gas stations and travel stops to install the necessary equipment for DC fast charging in those areas.  States should add them to rest stops as well.

Just off of I-80 here in Iowa there are chargers being installed and should be ready to go online soon. Also, two weeks ago on the Indiana turnpike there were several chargers being installed as well. No doubt the Midwest is behind, but we are slowly catching up. 

[rperez817]

Detroit News says that Ford BEV may outsell GM BEV in 2021. Ford claims No. 1 sales spot in November, poised to outsell GM's EVs (detroitnews.com)

 

With General Motors Co. extending downtime at its Chevrolet Bolt plant in Oakland County into next year, Ford Motor Co.’s electric vehicles are poised to outsell GM’s for 2021, depending on how December shakes out.

Although Tesla Inc. and Volkswagen AG remain the top two sellers of electric vehicles in the United States, GM and Ford are revving to be market leaders, they say.

With the Mach-E notching a couple thousand sales each month, it's on track to overtake Bolt sales for the year.

[FordBuyer]

3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Detroit News says that Ford BEV may outsell GM BEV in 2021. Ford claims No. 1 sales spot in November, poised to outsell GM's EVs (detroitnews.com)

 

 

 

 

The Transit EV launch is set for December 20. So by spring Ford will have 3 BEVs in the market place including the Lightning that has been in preproduction phase for months. The Transit EV could be the sleeper depending what the production capacity is. With Rivian in production hell, Ford will not have much trouble selling Transit EVs. Great move by Ford focusing on EV commercial use. 

[BoomerSooner]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:10 AM, akirby said:

It takes 45 minutes to go from 10%-80% on a fast charger.  And the chances of finding an available fast charger within walking distance of your destination (today) is pretty slim.  Can it be done?  Of course, but it’s not going to be convenient in most cases until we get more and faster chargers.

I've watched reviews of people who went long distances in EVs.  The compromises to do so (and I have no personal experience with the charge time, though the 10-20 minute full charge seemed optimistic) are beyond my personal willingness to endure.  Also, everything I've read says the fast chargers degrade the batteries.  I'm not sure I'm down for shortening the life span of my battery pack.  Also, forcing me to navigate based upon charger locations (and I've seen plenty that were full or broken) is a big "ask." If you're willing to make these sacrifices, please, by all means, go do it.  But it's not for me.  Like I said, I'm almost certain to replace our hybrid with a plug-in later next year, but even the longer-ranged Mach-E is too limiting.  

[RedHoncho01]

Ford is working on development of a new type of charging cord with Purdue University that will be a gamechanger for EV recharging.  They have found a way to cool the cord so it can take much higher charging rates to the point that recharging an EV vehicle will be as fast as gassing up an ICE vehicle.  This technology is probably 4 - 5 years from deployment as the charging stations and hardware/software on the EVs will have to be upgraded to handle the rapid charging.  

 

I have a Lincoln Corsair Grand Touring and bought this type of vehicle to be a bridge until the battery and charging technology improves as mentioned above.

 

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/11/10/ford-and-purdue-charging-station.html

 

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43155/ford-purdue-cooling-patent-could-charge-evs-as-fast-as-gas-station-fill-ups

Edited December 3, 2021 by RedHoncho01

[akirby]

47 minutes ago, RedHoncho01 said:

  I have a Lincoln Corsair Grand Touring and bought this type of vehicle to be a bridge until the battery and charging technology improves as mentioned above.

How are you liking the Corsair GT?  It’s on the short list to replace our mkx.

[lfeg]

All the discussion over range, charging station availability and use is good. In my view, what is needed is charging station availability on the scale of the Pilot, Loves, Flying J, TA, and QT  travel stop locations along the interstates and other major highways. I recently been driving alot ( 650 to 750 miles a day) in an F150 with a 37 gallon fuel tank and averaging 20 mpg. I usually refueled after driving about 500 miles. I could find at least one of the above travel stops about every 100 to 150 miles, and it would take 10 to 15 minutes to refuel. Usually a fuel stop was not near a destination or when I would normally stop to eat. Now, most of these travel stops had some 30 to 48 fueling points, so with the increased time needed for EV charging there would probably need to be 60 to 100 charging points when EVs have a large share of the market. This can be done, but it will take considerable investment and real estate. Not to mention the electrical generation and transmission infrastructure to support it. For me, strong hybrid or plug in hybrid would be the way to go, as it could cover my day to day 200 or so miles per week use, 300 to 350 occasional miles per day weekend use, and my usual long distance trips. I do not see EVs (such as the F150 Lightning) and the charging infrastructure being up to my needs for at least 10 to 20 years given how long it takes to permit transmission line expansion and generating capacity in the US. (recent example, there has been a proposal to build an offshore wind farm on Lake Erie for the last 25 years. It has been held up by permitting issues and interminable lawsuits, mostly from so called environmentalists, since day one. Another group has a proposal on the table, and there are lawsuits that are holding it up now also.)

[FordBuyer]

On 12/3/2021 at 8:27 AM, rperez817 said:

Detroit News says that Ford BEV may outsell GM BEV in 2021. Ford claims No. 1 sales spot in November, poised to outsell GM's EVs (detroitnews.com)

 

 

 

 

Not 2022. Reported yesterday that customer deliveries of the Lightning has been delayed 6 months to September, 2022. So Ford won't be delivering many Lightnings in 2022...maybe 5,000 or so. It will have to fall to Mach E and EV Transit for Ford to outsell GM in BEVs. However, Ford has more electric vehicles than GM and IMO is more important. 

[mackinaw]

2 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Not 2022. Reported yesterday that customer deliveries of the Lightning has been delayed 6 months to September, 2022. So Ford won't be delivering many Lightnings in 2022...maybe 5,000 or so. It will have to fall to Mach E and EV Transit for Ford to outsell GM in BEVs. However, Ford has more electric vehicles than GM and IMO is more important. 

 

Not true.  Ford's Emma Bergg director of EV Communications, said yesterday that the Lightning is on track for spring 2022 deliveries.  

 

https://fordauthority.com/2021/12/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-deliveries-will-begin-next-spring/