silvrsvt Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 18 hours ago, ice-capades said: It's been widely reported for some time that BEV vehicle assembly will be less labor intensive which will make upcoming UAW contract negotiations that much more interesting. I'd expect that the contract issues will be more focused on protecting job security for BEV component production rather than plant assembly operations. Tesla's expertise is not in vehicle assembly, so I doubt that comparing previous production at the plant is appropriate. I don't really see a huge improvement in throughput with building a BEV when it comes to assembly. Yes, they are less complex then an ICE, but given how cars are assembled, they really aren't that much different. They might be able to squeeze out an extra 10-15 units an hour if they needed to. The real issue for the UAW is that Ford won't need transmission plants or maybe as many engine plants as they do now, since Electric is less complex to build then say a multivalve V8 engine. That is where the major change is going to happen. The other issue with Tesla plant vs other plants is that some of the floor space is used for subcomponent manufacturing like seats-at least that is what I remember when I went there. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Silvrsvt nailed it - the big change will be powertrain plants. The skateboard with batteries is a little more complex than a regular chassis due to the batteries. The body, suspension, paint, glass, wheels, seats, steering, dash and electronics are all the same. Motors are simpler. I don’t know why everyone thinks they’re SO much simpler. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 I would say the packaging is much simpler as well because you don't have to fit an engine, transmission, transfer case all down through the engine bay. No exhaust to route all the way to the back while avoiding too much heat in certain areas either. So, somewhat simpler, but not like it's going to cut production time in half. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted December 20, 2021 Author Share Posted December 20, 2021 23 minutes ago, akirby said: I don’t know why everyone thinks they’re SO much simpler. Farley's direct quote is that "it costs 30% less to manufacture an EV", spoken in the context of "labor concerns". That seems to imply the plant floor itself, although I guess it could be argued it also affects the subassemblies as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 From Assembly Plant viewpoint, I don't see much difference. From a powertrain plant viewpoint, simpler assembly. Overall material cost might be another story. Hybrids seem to be the worst of both worlds. Only way it works as a "balancing act" of various costs and a willingness to accept less profit for a green statement. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 23 minutes ago, Harley Lover said: Farley's direct quote is that "it costs 30% less to manufacture an EV", spoken in the context of "labor concerns". That seems to imply the plant floor itself, although I guess it could be argued it also affects the subassemblies as well. I bet that savings is almost entirely in the powertrain and related components. Engines and transmissions are expensive to manufacture and ship. Then remove the alternator, radiator, heater core and exhaust plus all the sensors. Fuel system is probably offset by the batteries. I don’t see 30% more efficient at the factory level. Batteries and motors replace engine/transmission/exhaust/cooling. Everything else is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 34 minutes ago, fordmantpw said: I would say the packaging is much simpler as well because you don't have to fit an engine, transmission, transfer case all down through the engine bay. Those are actually installed from underneath but the point is still valid as those components are harder to install than EV components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 22 minutes ago, akirby said: Those are actually installed from underneath but the point is still valid as those components are harder to install than EV components. Guess I need to watch a few more assembly line videos! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 4 hours ago, paintguy said: From Assembly Plant viewpoint, I don't see much difference. From a powertrain plant viewpoint, simpler assembly. Overall material cost might be another story. Hybrids seem to be the worst of both worlds. Only way it works as a "balancing act" of various costs and a willingness to accept less profit for a green statement. But at the same time Ford is integrating hybrid into transmissions and would just require a battery pack and electronics for it. So the impact isn't as high it once was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Seeing the engine stuffer in operation is awesome. When it is down, stress inducing for all involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 On 12/20/2021 at 1:56 AM, jpd80 said: It’s the perfect opportunity to refocus Ford and the UAW on bringing more sub assembly/ component work back under Ford control. That becomes sustainable jobs well into the future. It would dramatically help with quality too. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 22 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The real issue for the UAW is that Ford won't need transmission plants or maybe as many engine plants as they do now, since Electric is less complex to build then say a multivalve V8 engine. That is where the major change is going to happen. 21 hours ago, akirby said: Silvrsvt nailed it - the big change will be powertrain plants. The skateboard with batteries is a little more complex than a regular chassis due to the batteries. The body, suspension, paint, glass, wheels, seats, steering, dash and electronics are all the same. Motors are simpler. I don’t know why everyone thinks they’re SO much simpler. I said it a few weeks ago. I can see a few engine and transmission plants being converted to electric drivetrain plants in the next 5-10 years (I'm looking at you, Dearborn Engine in particular). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 21 hours ago, fordmantpw said: I would say the packaging is much simpler as well because you don't have to fit an engine, transmission, transfer case all down through the engine bay. No exhaust to route all the way to the back while avoiding too much heat in certain areas either. So, somewhat simpler, but not like it's going to cut production time in half. It definitely saves time and makes the process simpler because the front and rear subframes don't need to be installed simultaneously. The issue is even if that process is able to be sped up the rest of the line might not be able to go any faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 21 hours ago, akirby said: Then remove the alternator, radiator, heater core and exhaust plus all the sensors. You’re still going to need a lot of that stuff. Batteries and electric motors need to be cooled too and the cabin still needs to be heated for cold weather driving too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I said it a few weeks ago. I can see a few engine and transmission plants being converted to electric drivetrain plants in the next 5-10 years (I'm looking at you, Dearborn Engine in particular). Already happening but again, I see more consolidation happening…. One thing, if Tennessee is as big as rumours say, Ford is expecting it to see a lot of F150 production each month. Depending on pace of BEV embrace post 2024, there could be a big drop in demand for ICE trucks at Dearborn and KCAP, maybe faster than Ford was expecting with the original plan……..it’s not obvious yet so not an issue but might become so after next agreement is signed. Edited December 21, 2021 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 21 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: It definitely saves time and makes the process simpler because the front and rear subframes don't need to be installed simultaneously. The issue is even if that process is able to be sped up the rest of the line might not be able to go any faster. Tesla claims that the build time for a 3 is 10 hours, that freaked out the VW CEO. I suspect that the Tesla body shop is JIT for final trim which is OK if there’s never any stoppages.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 25 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Tesla claims that the build time for a 3 is 10 hours, that freaked out the VW CEO. Why did that freak out the VW CEO? What is VW's build time for a current ICE vehicle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Harley Lover said: Why did that freak out the VW CEO? What is VW's build time for a current ICE vehicle? Over 30 hrs….I just checked https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-electric-vehicle-10-hours-volkswagen-production-ceo-unable-keep/ Edited December 21, 2021 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Over 30 hrs….I just checked Damn, that would certainly get his attention! So, we have folks here saying there can't be much difference in the build time between an EV and ICE vehicle (it must be the difference in the sub assemblies/powertrain/components), but we have 2 major auto CEO's (VW and Ford) saying there's a significant gap in the build time of the vehicle itself. What to make of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Harley Lover said: Damn, that would certainly get his attention! So, we have folks here saying there can't be much difference in the build time between an EV and ICE vehicle (it must be the difference in the sub assemblies/powertrain/components), but we have 2 major auto CEO's (VW and Ford) saying there's a significant gap in the build time of the vehicle itself. What to make of that? Tesla is not apples to apples with other manufacturers and how they build vehicles in high volume plants. I suspect that a lot of VW’s 30 hour build time is based on the amount of shells it builds, paints and stores ready for final trim. I suspect that Tesla doesn’t do that but instead builds shells that are just in time for final trim, eliminating lots of hours on hold. Anyone who works on a modern high volume production line will be able to explain the virtues and problems with both methods. I think Tesla will run into problems with poor production line speed when it tries to ramp up to say two or three shifts around the clock Edited December 21, 2021 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Tesla is not apples to apples with other manufacturers and how they build vehicles in high volume plants. I suspect that a lot of VW’s 30 hour build time is based on the amount of shells it builds, paints and stores ready for final trim. I suspect that Tesla doesn’t do that but instead builds shells that are just in time for final trim, eliminating lots of hours on hold. Tesla shouldn't be really used as a benchmark, because their single plant in California "only" produces 250K units a year vs other plants that do almost double that. I'm going with the truth is somewhere in between. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 20 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: I'm going with the truth is somewhere in between. ... Which might lead back to Farley's 30% figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balthisar Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I said it a few weeks ago. I can see a few engine and transmission plants being converted to electric drivetrain plants in the next 5-10 years (I'm looking at you, Dearborn Engine in particular). DEFTP (the FT used to mean fuel tank) is now mostly an annex to the stamping plant. Is the early 2000's era I4/I5 line still manufacturing engines? (Yeah, the plan was to build I5 initially.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 4 hours ago, Harley Lover said: ... Which might lead back to Farley's 30% figure. 30% cheaper not faster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 26 minutes ago, akirby said: 30% cheaper not faster Cost = time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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