kfford Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 10 hours ago, tjm73 said: This may sound weird, but..... We are not buying our truck from Ford. We are buying our truck, built by Ford, from the independent dealer. The dealer is not Ford. They are a separate business licensed by Ford to sell Fords. This is not different from the commercial hardware world I work in. If you buy a Yale or Best or Kwikset lock from someone and have a problem with the order or the lock, you don't call the manufacturer, you call where you bought it. It is their job as the distributor to handle all the issues and questions. Some do this well some...not so well. Dealerships are basically contracted to act as the public interface between Ford and the consumer. Ford makes it. The dealer buys it. The dealer resells it. The consumer buys it. This is the distribution business model. Increasingly it seems people don't know about or understand it. Ford does not and cannot tell a dealer how to operate their business. They can apply some leverage if they have to, but at the end of the day, Ford is not actually selling you that truck. I do in fact understand the distribution business model. If I was was not paying $90+k it may be different but I have traded a vehicle and ordered a Ford through a dealer who will not, can not or otherwise has not helped much. On items in that price range the manufacturer should be getting much more involved. Sad to see responses like above when we are not dealing with hardware or locks. In many cases these are purchases of a lifetime. Reminds me of dealing with a Ford dealership that is not helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, kfford said: I do in fact understand the distribution business model. If I was was not paying $90+k it may be different but I have traded a vehicle and ordered a Ford through a dealer who will not, can not or otherwise has not helped much. On items in that price range the manufacturer should be getting much more involved. Sad to see responses like above when we are not dealing with hardware or locks. In many cases these are purchases of a lifetime. Reminds me of dealing with a Ford dealership that is not helpful There are 3000 Ford dealers in the US. You have to do your homework when choosing one just like any other purchase. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjm73 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 4 hours ago, kfford said: I do in fact understand the distribution business model. If I was was not paying $90+k it may be different but I have traded a vehicle and ordered a Ford through a dealer who will not, can not or otherwise has not helped much. On items in that price range the manufacturer should be getting much more involved. Sad to see responses like above when we are not dealing with hardware or locks. In many cases these are purchases of a lifetime. Reminds me of dealing with a Ford dealership that is not helpful You fail to see the parallel. Of course we are not dealing with locks. To suggest we were would be idiotic. But the business model is identical and that was my point. $90 lock, $90,000 truck. Process is the same. If you don't like your chosen vendor, perhaps you should have chosen a different vendor. Or perhaps you need to ask your vendor better questions. You're allowing your emotions to cloud what is a purely business transaction to the dealer and Ford. Because the dealer has bought the truck you are buying from them, from Ford. In exactly the same way I buy a lock from Yale, mark it up and resell it to a contractor. As I said Ford can apply pressure if they want, but they are more willing to work with the dealership than you. Because their business relationship is with the dealership. Not you. The dealership bought one truck from Ford for you. Ford expects them to buy hundreds of vehicles for hundreds of customers. Ford will not jeopardize that relationship over every customer that is not a direct customer being upset about market conditions that are not within their control. Your complaint is with your chosen dealer. It is not Ford's fault or problem that you are not happy with your dealers response to your questions. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 8 hours ago, Blackhawk23 said: Wow. Wonder if this is good or bad. Neither. Scheduling is sometimes delayed due to technical issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 8 hours ago, Hahnsolo said: What does that mean Ice? Simple. Scheduling will be delayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
posh Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Ahhh, well.... Was originally scheduled to be built next week. But no further information yet..... Based on the delay in scheduling, and the articles about production being scaled back, I assume at 4:01pm I'll get the email bumping production to another week later this summer...... ? We will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers09 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 On 6/14/2022 at 5:29 AM, rlp450 said: This past Friday I completed all the paperwork to finalize the purchase of my new F350 and I was taken aback by a policy ( I guess I can call it that) that is in place when you remove items from your order (AS, 5WP). I ordered a F350 Lariat Ultimate package LED's and a dually, my order also included AS and 5WP, my agreed upon sales price was $77,100. After my order, at the recommendation of the GM at my dealer, I dropped AS ($910) and 5WP ($455) from my order. When I went in to finalize my purchase, my salesman brought out the contract and I see the sales price is still $77,100. I then ask him, "shouldn't the sales price be less as I dropped AS and 5WP from my order but I see that I am still getting charged for it?" The sales manager calls the Ford rep and I am giving a $127.00 discount from Ford. I asked the sales manager that my sales price includes $1,365 for options that I didn't get and Ford is only giving me $127.00 credit? He laughed and said that is Ford's doing not his. I said, so basically, Ford is still charging me $1,238 for nothing. So if my original order had not included AS and 5WP, my truck would have cost $1,365 less, but because I ordered those options and Ford, at the time, couldn't produce it that way so I remove those items from my order. Yet Ford still makes money on those items even though they provide nothing to the customer. What a racket these automakers have going on. BTW, I had to purchase the 5WP kit for 720.00 and pay to have it installed for 500.00 even though there is a line item in my invoice for the factory 5WP kit that I am still paying for. Total BS, your dealer is lying. I ordered a F-450 in August 2021 and in October added the KR ultimate package and at the suggestion of my Sales Manager, removed a couple of options. When the truck was finally serialised, the removed options were not included on the Window Sticker. When sitting in the business office, I could have pre-written the cheque, as it was as per the price we agreed in August 2021, less the cancelled options and plus the KRU. If your dealer was honourable, you would have received the same experience. BTW - I never received an invoice from Ford directly, as they invoice the dealer. My invoice comes from my dealer. Your lying dealer is blaming Ford, while they try to fleece you. Were the options you removed included on the Window Sticker. If not, Ford did not invoice your dealer for them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers09 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 On 6/14/2022 at 11:30 AM, Hahnsolo said: Have you heard what the part constraints are on the F450? I have a platinum on order but I did not get a moon roof or adaptive steering or bedliner. Only extras are upfitter switches, floor mats and star white paint. During my 8-month wait for a F-450, in addition to commodity restraints common to most SD's, the dually bed and wheels were a restraint specific to F-450's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers09 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 On 6/14/2022 at 7:29 PM, DaveMows said: Kinda figured it will be the same here! Hopefully, it will be quicker. Mine only took 15 days from KTP to Metro Vancouver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Bill Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 On 6/15/2022 at 9:31 AM, akirby said: Also remember the dealer controls the priority not Ford and that this system was created for 99% stock orders. They tried to do it differently with Bronco - you reserve online and that determines your place in the build queue and dealer allocation and priority are not involved. But parts availability put a monkey wrench in that plan along with uneven dealer sales. Ford needs dealers so it’s a fine line they have to walk, but I expect going forward we’ll see more of a first in first out order system where the price is fixed and you just pick your local dealer to do the delivery and paperwork. What you have today are dealers with high prices and low order volume and some like Grainger with high volume and dirt cheap pricing. This model should even it out so that dealers have a more even distribution of sales since pricing is the same. So the low volume dealer gets more sales at a slightly lower avg price (no ADMs) and the lowball dealers get fewer sales but far more profit per sale. Theoretically everyone should be happy, but we know that won’t be the case. Why would I be happy being forced to paying more at Granger because other dealers are price gouging or inept? I like dirt cheap pricing and excellent service. Granger is providing that in spades and doing quite well. Competitive pricing trumps fixed pricing any day of the week. That is, unless you are a socialist. Bite your tongue, young man. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Mister Bill said: Why would I be happy being forced to paying more at Granger because other dealers are price gouging or inept? I like dirt cheap pricing and excellent service. Granger is providing that in spades and doing quite well. Competitive pricing trumps fixed pricing any day of the week. That is, unless you are a socialist. Bite your tongue, young man. ? Not a Socialist at all, but Granger’s business model is stupid and not sustainable for most dealers. It would be like Kroger deciding to sell everything at or below cost and making it up elsewhere. It’s great for consumers who only care about their wallets but it’s terrible for the industry as a whole. And if it forces other dealers out of business then you lose choices and when Granger changes their pricing you’re stuck with no options. The other problem is you get stuck in a huge order queue - you may have 100 vehicles ahead of you resulting in even longer wait times. And not every one is willing to travel that far or have it shipped if it ever does show up. So it’s great for a few customers but for the other 99% of buyers the system I described is much more fair across the board for buyers, dealers and Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IA Diver Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 59 minutes ago, akirby said: Not a Socialist at all, but Granger’s business model is stupid and not sustainable for most dealers. It would be like Kroger deciding to sell everything at or below cost and making it up elsewhere. It’s great for consumers who only care about their wallets but it’s terrible for the industry as a whole. And if it forces other dealers out of business then you lose choices and when Granger changes their pricing you’re stuck with no options. The other problem is you get stuck in a huge order queue - you may have 100 vehicles ahead of you resulting in even longer wait times. And not every one is willing to travel that far or have it shipped if it ever does show up. So it’s great for a few customers but for the other 99% of buyers the system I described is much more fair across the board for buyers, dealers and Ford. I agree, I ordered through Granger kinda wish now I hadn't. There are 100 ahead of me, if they had advised how many were on order I would have chosen more locally. It's nice to save a buck, but I use my truck for work so that always trumps getting it cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjm73 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 4 hours ago, posh said: Ahhh, well.... Was originally scheduled to be built next week. But no further information yet..... Based on the delay in scheduling, and the articles about production being scaled back, I assume at 4:01pm I'll get the email bumping production to another week later this summer...... ? We will see. As my build week gets closer and having been pushed back one week already I am hoping with all hope I don't get pushed back again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Bill Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, akirby said: Not a Socialist at all, but Granger’s business model is stupid and not sustainable for most dealers. It would be like Kroger deciding to sell everything at or below cost and making it up elsewhere. It’s great for consumers who only care about their wallets but it’s terrible for the industry as a whole. And if it forces other dealers out of business then you lose choices and when Granger changes their pricing you’re stuck with no options. The other problem is you get stuck in a huge order queue - you may have 100 vehicles ahead of you resulting in even longer wait times. And not every one is willing to travel that far or have it shipped if it ever does show up. So it’s great for a few customers but for the other 99% of buyers the system I described is much more fair across the board for buyers, dealers and Ford. Well, you certainly are not coming across as a capitalist. ? That's the thinking of those who grew up under the participation trophy era, as it seems you are saying dealers should not be free to choose what they price vehicles at so it can be fair to under achieving dealers. No winners or losers, right? ? Price fixing is not a free market and is indeed the mindset of socialists. Springer Farms is not dictating to Kroger how much to charge for their chicken. Under your proposal, they would be. Loss leaders have been a sound business practice since the beginning of time. Because some people prefer not to travel, your saying those who do should be forced to pay a higher price to appease those who won't? Competition forces excellence. Saying someone's business model is stupid is quite biased and opiniated with no basis in fact. Let the free market decide. As for being stuck in a que, retail orders are incremental allocation. Without supply constraints, vehicles would be getting delivered in a timely fashion regardless of dealer volume. Edited June 16, 2022 by Mister Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjm73 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) If some dealerships hadn't painted themselves into the crappy corners they live with BS behaviors, screwing people over, buyers wouldn't be willing or eager to consider and expect non negotiable pricing. Also, many people are sick or or just don't want to dicker for a fair price. Give me the best price that you give everyone else and I will buy the darn car. The market is evolving. The nickname "stealership" exists for a reason. People feel like they are getting ripped off at probably the majority of dealerships. My dealership sells at the published invoice. Period. I ordered January 31, 2022. Walked in said this is what I want. They printed up the spec sheet with the MSRP and the invoice (invoice matched what I found online). Then they said we don't dicker. Invoice is our price. I signed. No BS. So some dealers are adding extra monies to get what ever extra they can. Mine has stuck to their sales model. And they have a greatvl reputation as a result. Edited June 16, 2022 by tjm73 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjm73 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 When do window stickers become viewable and where would I view it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Bill Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 18 minutes ago, tjm73 said: When do window stickers become viewable and where would I view it? Usually about a week or two before it goes into production. A link to the WS will be in the "in production" email or VVR at the dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Bill Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 25 minutes ago, tjm73 said: If some dealerships hadn't painted themselves into the crappy corners they live with BS behaviors, screwing people over, buyers wouldn't be willing or eager to consider and expect non negotiable pricing. Also, many people are sick or or just don't want to dicker for a fair price. Give me the best price that you give everyone else and I will buy the darn car. The market is evolving. The nickname "stealership" exists for a reason. People feel like they are getting ripped off at probably the majority of dealerships. My dealership sells at the published invoice. Period. I ordered January 31, 2022. Walked in said this is what I want. They printed up the spec sheet with the MSRP and the invoice (invoice matched what I found online). Then they said we don't dicker. Invoice is our price. I signed. No BS. So some dealers are adding extra monies to get what ever extra they can. Mine has stuck to their sales model. And they have a greatvl reputation as a result. That's the problem. As you shared, there are honest dealers, and the not so honest dealers are whining loudly to Ford they cannot compete with the invoice pricing some dealers are offering. And Ford is listening to them, with the support of the anti-free market crowd. Under the proposed plan above, no one will be purchasing under MSRP, so your invoice price goes away. Buyers can and should always be able to vote with their feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 29 minutes ago, Mister Bill said: Usually about a week or two before it goes into production. A link to the WS will be in the "in production" email or VVR at the dealer. Window Stickers are generally available 1-7 days prior to vehicle production. The Vehicle Visibility reports do not include any information related to Window Stickers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Bill Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 18 minutes ago, ice-capades said: Window Stickers are generally available 1-7 days prior to vehicle production. The Vehicle Visibility reports do not include any information related to Window Stickers. Thank you for the clarification. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 33 minutes ago, Mister Bill said: That's the problem. As you shared, there are honest dealers, and the not so honest dealers are whining loudly to Ford they cannot compete with the invoice pricing some dealers are offering. And Ford is listening to them, with the support of the anti-free market crowd. That’s not the issue at all. The dealers who are gouging are perfectly happy. It’s the customers who aren’t happy. They have 3 choices: IF they know about Granger (and most would not know) they can get in a long line and wait and travel a long way or pay shipping. And just because Ford gives incremental allocations does not mean a dealer with 100 super duties on order gets all 100 scheduled. Production will still be distributed amongst all the dealers and those in the back will have to wait longer. Capitalism only survives where there are profits. Selling at or below cost is not a sustainable or fair business practice. You’re not a capitalist, you’re just a consumer who wants the cheapest price and damn the consequences. You’ll order from Amazon to save $10 instead of supporting a local business. As long as you get yours, who cares about the rest? Many brands have fixed or highly controlled pricing. It protects the brand and consumers from unscrupulous dealers. Festool is a perfect example. Hasn’t hurt their sales at all. You’re still free to buy other brands and models. Tesla has this model now and it works. Some people pay more, some pay less but it’s fair and consumers don’t get blind sided with last minute ADMs or having to spend days shopping around and hoping your dealer won’t screw you. What if Granger promised below invoice pricing, you waited 8 months and they decide to charge you $10k over MSRP. You just wasted 8 months. And there is nothing that prevents that from happening with any dealer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Bill Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 20 minutes ago, akirby said: That’s not the issue at all. The dealers who are gouging are perfectly happy. It’s the customers who aren’t happy. They have 3 choices: IF they know about Granger (and most would not know) they can get in a long line and wait and travel a long way or pay shipping. And just because Ford gives incremental allocations does not mean a dealer with 100 super duties on order gets all 100 scheduled. Production will still be distributed amongst all the dealers and those in the back will have to wait longer. Capitalism only survives where there are profits. Selling at or below cost is not a sustainable or fair business practice. You’re not a capitalist, you’re just a consumer who wants the cheapest price and damn the consequences. You’ll order from Amazon to save $10 instead of supporting a local business. As long as you get yours, who cares about the rest? Many brands have fixed or highly controlled pricing. It protects the brand and consumers from unscrupulous dealers. Festool is a perfect example. Hasn’t hurt their sales at all. You’re still free to buy other brands and models. Tesla has this model now and it works. Some people pay more, some pay less but it’s fair and consumers don’t get blind sided with last minute ADMs or having to spend days shopping around and hoping your dealer won’t screw you. What if Granger promised below invoice pricing, you waited 8 months and they decide to charge you $10k over MSRP. You just wasted 8 months. And there is nothing that prevents that from happening with any dealer. I am indeed a capitalist, I do not purchase anything from Amazon, I do support local businesses if they are honest and competitive, and I support your right to have a different point of view. Fixed pricing will do nothing to weed out unscrupulous dealers, it will only serve to prop up dealers who lack the business savvy to compete in a free and open market while raising prices for customers who choose to do the legwork and shop wisely. Price fixing is never in the best interest of the consumer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 23 minutes ago, Mister Bill said: Fixed pricing will do nothing to weed out unscrupulous dealers, it will only serve to prop up dealers who lack the business savvy to compete in a free and open market It completely eliminates ADMs, hidden fees, bait and switch pricing, last minute price changes, having to shop multiple dealers and a host of other things that buyers have to put up with. It also forces dealers to treat customers better since that’s the only way to differentiate themselves. Yes, a few buyers will pay more but most will pay the same or less than what they’re paying today and there will be other benefits ordering directly from Ford. I understand some people won’t like it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSetters Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 On 6/15/2022 at 1:43 PM, ice-capades said: 2022MY Super Duty - The scheduling commitment has been delayed until 4:00pm tomorrow, Thursday, June 16th. This may be a dumb question, but would that be 4pm Central time? Just hoping with the slimmest of slim hopes that I may still get that wonderful email I have been not so patiently waiting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 46 minutes ago, MSetters said: This may be a dumb question, but would that be 4pm Central time? Just hoping with the slimmest of slim hopes that I may still get that wonderful email I have been not so patiently waiting for. Dearborn - 4:00pm EDT - 2022MY Super Duty scheduling is still in process. Give it time! Edited June 16, 2022 by ice-capades Additional Content 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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