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Posted (edited)

We have worked with multiple divisions in the past. Ford - Mercury - Lincoln  so company divisions isn`t a new cooperate situation. 

 

Now, Ford Blue - Ford Model e: Ford will scale up our BEV capacity to 600,000 by the end of 2023 - and that's just the beginning.

 

Henry gave people (his customers) the freedom of the open road. I wonder where the freedom will be if everyone has to live by a charging schedule?  Yes I'm old school but, not a hater of new idea`s. Maybe the Henry`s of today have it all figured out. 

 

To give one a perspective of what it was like crossing the nation in a model T back in that models day, check out the latest documentary called the Long Way Up. There's an old saying that is applied to two wheeled journeys and that can apply to any journey really,  "it`s not the destination it`s the journey". The first episodes put`s into perspective in a sense what it must have been like to get into your model T and head out. But in this day and time will people be free enough with their time and schedules to except the freedom governed by waiting for charging? In the documentary not only are the bikes electric but the chase SUV` are also. The documentary turned from the adventure of the journey to a docudrama of such. Finding the fuel source became the whole content of the first few episodes, the journey was in a distant second place. This changed only when the fuel source was all but edited out of the story line. Then the documentary became much more visually appealing. But in real life there isn`t a film editor and things would be much different than the documentary. Many things have come a long way from the model T days, comfort, speed and the open road it`s self. But one thing has stayed the same for older transport machines, the fueling schedules have stayed as short as one would want. Freedom of the open road is in many ways going to change. 

Edited by Decker

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Big difference in :

 

A)  Building what customers want.

B)  Building what the company wants.

C)  Building what the government wants.

D)  33.3% of all of the above.

 

We have seen Ford largely exit the passenger car and mini van market to give competition and transplants more market share.

A red flag is when foreign transplant companies can build new plants in the USA , make and sell cars at a profit yet Ford in business over a century bailed on that market segment.

A company does not cut its way to prosperity or do it with platitudes.

 

I find nothing wrong with EV's IF a person wants one and it fits their use and lifestyle.

Pushing them on the masses is as flawed as bailing out of a market segment because you cant compete. 

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5 hours ago, cal50 said:

 

We have seen Ford largely exit the passenger car and mini van market to give competition and transplants more market share.

A red flag is when foreign transplant companies can build new plants in the USA , make and sell cars at a profit yet Ford in business over a century bailed on that market segment.

A company does not cut its way to prosperity or do it with platitudes.


Pardon the interruption but I can’t let inaccurate statements go unchallenged.  They did not cut anything or cede market share.  They REPLACED Focus with Ranger and Bronco and they replaced Fusion and MKZ with Maverick and Bronco Sport and they replaced Ecosport with Mach-E.  They also diverted resources to developing E-Transit and F-150 Lightning which both retail and commercial customers want badly.  
 

There is demand for BEVs to a point and Ford needs to be competitive and be ready to make that shift based on demand,  But at the same time they’re not abandoning ICE vehicles anytime soon - that’s what is paying for the BEV development.   I agree government shouldn’t be forcing it but if they do Ford has to be ready.

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45 minutes ago, akirby said:


Pardon the interruption but I can’t let inaccurate statements go unchallenged.  They did not cut anything or cede market share.  They REPLACED Focus with Ranger and Bronco and they replaced Fusion and MKZ with Maverick and Bronco Sport and they replaced Ecosport with Mach-E.  They also diverted resources to developing E-Transit and F-150 Lightning which both retail and commercial customers want badly.  
 

There is demand for BEVs to a point and Ford needs to be competitive and be ready to make that shift based on demand,  But at the same time they’re not abandoning ICE vehicles anytime soon - that’s what is paying for the BEV development.   I agree government shouldn’t be forcing it but if they do Ford has to be ready.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see someone looking at a Focus competitor (say Civic or Corolla) looking at Bronco  or Ranger. Same with Fusion competitor customers and putting them into Maverick or Bronco Sport. I know of a number of people who have avoided Trucks and SUVs for one reason or another for decades. When they ask me what Ford offers and I explain the options, they say, "Oh, Ford doesn't have anything for me". Granted, this part of the market is smaller, and is shrinking, but the imports offer an alternate. Dodge still has Charger and Chevy still selling Malibu and Impala, albeit they are barely hanging on.  

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20 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see someone looking at a Focus competitor (say Civic or Corolla) looking at Bronco  or Ranger. Same with Fusion competitor customers and putting them into Maverick or Bronco Sport. I know of a number of people who have avoided Trucks and SUVs for one reason or another for decades. When they ask me what Ford offers and I explain the options, they say, "Oh, Ford doesn't have anything for me". Granted, this part of the market is smaller, and is shrinking, but the imports offer an alternate. Dodge still has Charger and Chevy still selling Malibu and Impala, albeit they are barely hanging on.  


You misunderstood the comparison, although I just read that the Maverick’s largest competitor conquest was the Honda Civic.

 

They replaced Focus with Ranger from the perspective of the resources required to design, engineer, market and build them including MAP.  To keep both would have required building a new factory and hiring hundreds more people.  
 

They traded vehicles that were commodities with tons of low priced competition that generated little if any profit for vehicles selling at MSRP and higher that people love and which have very few direct competitors.  That translates to WAY more profit.  For every car customer they lost they’re gaining a new one who is willing to pay a lot more.

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But I have a hard time believing that there's more profit in a $20k hybrid crew cab pickup that there was in a $20k Focus...

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8 hours ago, akirby said:


You misunderstood the comparison, although I just read that the Maverick’s largest competitor conquest was the Honda Civic.

 

They replaced Focus with Ranger from the perspective of the resources required to design, engineer, market and build them including MAP.  To keep both would have required building a new factory and hiring hundreds more people.  
 

They traded vehicles that were commodities with tons of low priced competition that generated little if any profit for vehicles selling at MSRP and higher that people love and which have very few direct competitors.  That translates to WAY more profit.  For every car customer they lost they’re gaining a new one who is willing to pay a lot more.

I agree that we abandoned low profit vehicles for higher profit ones. This leaves room for competitors who can build those vehicles at a profit. Also recall that MAP was MTP, Michigan Truck Plant. Wayne Assembly, once home to the Focus, seems lost to history. 

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Posted (edited)

My point is just "time", our society is one that we and corporations have put in place the time schedules that governs everything. "You" need to be at work at, you have to be over there for this at or why don`t we take that flight because it gets us there earlier. Now maybe not everyone is scheduled out to every minute but most everyone at one time or another has passed themselves coming and going. 

 

Maybe there will be the day that the time consuming charging schedule will be nothing more than the old school pull into the station plug in and 5 minutes later you`re rolling again. Maybe? 

 

Full electric is definitely the way of the future, according to the trends.  But, have we kind of forgot about a unit that can keep up with our busy schedules? We still have PHEV`s rolling down the line. A unit that charges itself on the go. A unit that can go non stop for thousand's of miles. But, the trends or fades make the decisions. 

 

Edited by Decker

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9 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

But I have a hard time believing that there's more profit in a $20k hybrid crew cab pickup that there was in a $20k Focus...


They’re actually $25K but they are selling at MSRP without incentives because they have almost no direct competition.  Compared to Focus that had $3K rebates and was competing with the cheapest Korean and Japanese vehicles.   Even at a 10% net margin, you’re only looking at $2500 profit so adding a $3k rebate means you’re losing money.  That’s the difference in cars and the new vehicles.

 

Didn't mean to derail the topic.  Just wanted to correct a misconception that they were just cutting products to save mo yes.  If that were true MAP and the Mexican plants would be closed.

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1 hour ago, Decker said:

My point is just "time", our society is one that we and corporations have put in place the time schedules that governs everything. "You" need to be at work at, you have to be over there for this at or why don`t we take that flight because it gets us there earlier. Now maybe not everyone is scheduled out to every minute but most everyone at one time or another has passed themselves coming and going. 

 

Maybe there will be the day that the time consuming charging schedule will be nothing more than the old school pull into the station plug in and 5 minutes later you`re rolling again. Maybe? 

 

Full electric is definitely the way of the future, according to the trends.  But, have we kind of forgot about a unit that can keep up with our busy schedules? We still have PHEV`s rolling down the line. A unit that charges itself on the go. A unit that can go non stop for thousand's of miles. But, the trends or fades make the decisions. 

 


What the EV evangelists ignore is that public charging right now is damned inconvenient.  It can be done even on long trips but it requires a lot of planning and effort.  People who live in apartments, condos and older homes don’t have the option of overnight charging.  The next generation of batteries should provide quick public recharging more similar to gas station fill ups and that along with more chargers everywhere and cheaper BEVs ($20k) and that will make them viable for almost everyone.  But that is 5-10 years away.

 

Having 2 divisions allows Ford to be more efficient in BEV development while keeping the profit rolling in from ICE sales to finance BEV development.  I think we’ll see trucks and most utilities being sold alongside BEV counterparts for the next 10+ years at least.  And Ford can shift resources between the two as needed.

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11 hours ago, akirby said:


Pardon the interruption but I can’t let inaccurate statements go unchallenged.  They did not cut anything or cede market share.  They REPLACED Focus with Ranger and Bronco and they replaced Fusion and MKZ with Maverick and Bronco Sport and they replaced Ecosport with Mach-E.  They also diverted resources to developing E-Transit and F-150 Lightning which both retail and commercial customers want badly.  
 

There is demand for BEVs to a point and Ford needs to be competitive and be ready to make that shift based on demand,  But at the same time they’re not abandoning ICE vehicles anytime soon - that’s what is paying for the BEV development.   I agree government shouldn’t be forcing it but if they do Ford has to be ready.

 

 

You mean vacate the most used vehicle segment for a lower volume but higher profit margin one ?

 

Not everyone wants or can afford a platinum package or Lincoln and making a vehicle with roll up window , manual car locks and FM radio is not an option / most affordable.

With fuel costs going up a Focus with a diesel engine that would get +40 MPG would be far more desirable than an EV for double the cost , IMHO.

 

The car selections . models have decreased unless I missed something~

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10 hours ago, akirby said:


 For every car customer they lost they’re gaining a new one who is willing to pay a lot more.

 

 

B)  Building what the company wants

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1 hour ago, akirby said:


They’re actually $25K but they are selling at MSRP without incentives because they have almost no direct competition.  

 

 

Most likely because there is a shortage of ALL  new vehicles currently.

VERY limited selection available.

 

 

The real test is when lots are filled , including the competition.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, cal50 said:

 

 

Most likely because there is a shortage of ALL  new vehicles currently.

VERY limited selection available.

 

 

The real test is when lots are filled , including the competition.

 

 

 


They would be selling at MSRP either way because they are unique vehicles that buyers desire as opposed to a commodity that people buy because they’re cheap and they have 8 different versions to choose from all with the same basic design and features.  People are excited about the new stuff that never happened with Fusion or Focus.

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1 hour ago, cal50 said:

 

 

B)  Building what the company wants


Based on the order rate and time to turn a lot of people want Maverick, Bronco Sport and Bronco.  And Mach-E and F150 Lightning.  

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2 hours ago, cal50 said:

 

 

You mean vacate the most used vehicle segment for a lower volume but higher profit margin one ?

 

Not everyone wants or can afford a platinum package or Lincoln and making a vehicle with roll up window , manual car locks and FM radio is not an option / most affordable.

With fuel costs going up a Focus with a diesel engine that would get +40 MPG would be far more desirable than an EV for double the cost , IMHO.

 

The car selections . models have decreased unless I missed something~


That’s exactly what it means.  They’re willing to let others sell cars to those who want them and they’ll sell the new products to different buyers instead. Similar or slightly lower volume with the same number of plants at a much higher profit margin.

 

Here is an analogy.  You have a food truck in a location with other trucks.  You sell hot dogs but so do all the other trucks.  The competition keeps prices and profit margin low but volume is good.  But once every couple of weeks somebody does a hot dog special and everyone else is forced to match it wiping out most of the profit margin.

 

You decide that you’re going to switch from hot dogs to Lobster rolls. They take up the same space on the truck but instead of $2 each they’re $12 each and the profit level is huge.  You’re the only truck selling them so volume is good and you never have to discount them.  Different product, different customer, better business decion.

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I like the idea of splitting us into 2 divisions,But the major problem is gonna be staffing. The timing couldn't be worse and is very worrisome going forward. Now Ford has attracted some top talent to run the operations but with all the BEV startups the whitecoller jobs are gonna be extremely hard to fill. I know the tax credits in( blue oval city) Tennessee have a stipulation of hiring 5000 employees alone. Great time to be an electrical engineer, so much leverage. 

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Blue oval city…. A brand new, from the ground up faculty focused on EV’s.  Now with this split, Ford is gonna fight like HELL to keep the UAW out of there.  How? Separate the EV business from the ICE business.  Like they just did!  But not just “on paper”.  As soon as the new campus gets ready to open, they “officially” spin it off into a new company. A company not bound by any previous contracts. And let the UAW get left behind on the ICE ghost ship to eventually sink on its own.  

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3 hours ago, jose said:

I like the idea of splitting us into 2 divisions,But the major problem is gonna be staffing. The timing couldn't be worse and is very worrisome going forward. Now Ford has attracted some top talent to run the operations but with all the BEV startups the whitecoller jobs are gonna be extremely hard to fill. I know the tax credits in( blue oval city) Tennessee have a stipulation of hiring 5000 employees alone. Great time to be an electrical engineer, so much leverage. 

BOC reminds me of the Saturn experience of gm. It was supposed to be a $5billion investment but ended up half that.  From what I heard and read they are worried about staffing the facility. I don't think that it will be anywhere near 5000 at the end of the day. 

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10 hours ago, Footballfan said:

BOC reminds me of the Saturn experience of gm. 

I might suggest something closer to home... Visteon

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, akirby said:

Here is an analogy.  You have a food truck in a location with other trucks.  You sell hot dogs but so do all the other trucks.  The competition keeps prices and profit margin low but volume is good.  But once every couple of weeks somebody does a hot dog special and everyone else is forced to match it wiping out most of the profit margin.

 

You decide that you’re going to switch from hot dogs to Lobster rolls. They take up the same space on the truck but instead of $2 each they’re $12 each and the profit level is huge.  You’re the only truck selling them so volume is good and you never have to discount them.  Different product, different customer, better business decision.

 

There are a lot of good business scenarios and akirby`s is one. The Ford food truck is switching to the lobster rolls and I think it will work out for the profit side of the scenario. down the road.  

 

But, the Ford food truck isn`t the only food truck with the lobster roll ideas. Every ten minutes it comes on the big screen in our family rooms the commercials from every other food truck from KIA to BMW. All businesses are running full stream on this. Then again the Ford food truck has a slight edge and that is the Ford hotdogs are still selling out unlike the Tundra, Silverado etc etc. So the cash flow is far from restricted. Which is a good business situation to be in while R&D pulls hotdog money from the food truck. Having the number one selling truck, forever and the number one selling full size SUV is something other food trucks can`t use in their attempt at pushing the lobster roll out the service window. So yes I do agree the Ford food truck is in a better place business wise. 

 

Will the change on the menu work? The curious buyers are already in line. But will these "I just had to have one" or "I`m the first on my block with one" buyers be an asset? That will be as always one of the possible two sides to the marketing blade. The early bird buyer might be happy or not so much. The under side of the marketing blade is as it has in the past not so good for the new products that just fall short of the just gotta have one crowd. 

 

Talk around town is the Ford Food truck crew is working hard on two ingredients. Batteries & cost, if the first ingredient is achieved by having a truly rapid charge system the second ingredient may be over looked for a while by the curious buyers. And give favorable reactions that will pull in the Jane & John Doe peeps into the dealerships. Maybe.

 

As far as those thinking of the cost reduction in labor, well Chicago & Louisville etc etc have multiple facilities and there`s multiple represented work forces at these facilities. So as far as the Ford Food truck crew looking for ways to trim labor costs, umm have those suggesting this seen one of the last 4 or 5 UAW contracts? The labor cost is one of the factors you`ll see a profit check next week.  

 

Of course there are those at CAP, you no the sky is falling peep`s, CAP is finally closing!!!! Oh yeah those someone told me, I heard and did you hear peep`s are wetting their panties with this latest information. We "CAP" can`t build these units because we don`t have the room. We can`t build`em so they`re closing SHO Center first, then TDM then CAP too eventually.  After dam near 46 years I still can`t figure out what these knuckleheads get out of the "did you hear" conversations....

Edited by Decker

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Decker - the difference in what Ford is doing with Bronco/Bronco Sport/Maverick and the competition is that buyers absolutely love these vehicles and it’s not just because they’re new.  It’s because they’re unique and they support far more customization and accessories than cars.  Lift kits.  Bed covers. Roof tents.  Big tires.  3d printed accessories.  Brush guards.  Not to mention expensive factory packages (badlands, Everglades, etc) that make them more unique and more desirable than cars or other plain Jane utilities and trucks.  You don’t get that with a Kia or a Honda or most Toyotas or GMs.  
 

It’s what made F series the best selling pickup and that kind of desirability is what keeps prices high and incentives low.  Same for Wrangler all those years without any direct competition.  And you can’t get that with sedans.  There is virtually no difference between a Camry, Accord, Fusion, Sonata, Optima, Sentra, etc. Same shape, same power, same features.  Commodities.

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akirby.

 

Ford proved they can't financially compete with sedans.  Just like they couldn't compete with minivans.

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akirby, I agree with the enthusiasm for the Bronco and it's what so many have been hoping for, for years. But the pre orders and now regular orders are for? The people ordering Bronco`s haven`t thought about a full electric Bronco. As for aftermarket accessories once again, I can`t agree more. But the Bronco was built with aftermarket "Ford" produced or sourced accessories. The house of Ford is going full throttle profit. The Bronco is another bring it back to your dealer for everything. One thing most Wrangler owner wants are things they can do themselves. Lift kits, Wrangler you will never run out of different suppliers. Bronco well maybe but lift kits for the front suspension may be a Ford only kit. As for both Bronco`s yes there are a long line of trim level packages to pick from. But once again you are not personalizing your Bronco or baby Bronco. But really what percentage of aftermarket parts will fit into the picture it`s too early to tell. 

 

But I was talking more in line with the average customer accepting the wait time for full electric. Yes in a few or so years maybe the battery R&D will catch up. But our Farley brother is stating 600K electric units in place to sell by the end of 2023. I really hope if (and that is a big If) they all sell, and the recalls are minimal. Because Ford (marketing and decision makers) have a record of over loading manufacturing with options. Then ranting at the grunts who try to produce what the marketing people think (most have never seen a paint department or final assembly department) should be so easy to produce. 

 

I`m just old and like what I like, 74 pan head, 84 block head. George Smiths aftermarket products on both. I love the sound of that old F150 and its looks oh and the manual lockers. As for my great little Focus I guess I`ll drive it till I can`t drive it. Then the Accord Coupe looks really good. If it's still around. Never really warmed up to a soccer mom`s station wagon or as they`re called now SUV.  Those 4 foot tall pretty 4x4`s that can`t pull themselves out of a sandbox or have never seen anything but pavement just ain`t me.  But that's just an old ICE preferred long haired grunt.  Not a judgmental type, I say like and/or drive whatever one likes.  

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F séries, Bronco, Explorer and Mustang ICE versions aren’t going away anytime soon.  They’ll sell them as long as customers want them or the government outlaws them.  

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