10 speed JV Ford/GM

[Bob Rosadini]

Friend has  a 2018 Escalade and he  says  torque converter is  going.  It has a 10 speed  that is in fact a product of the JV??? What is the difference in this trans when used in a Ford vs a GM?  Design was common but manufacturing is by  ??Ford or GM?

[twintornados]

Mostly it is software differences

[7Mary3]

Transmission design is very similar, but the transmissions are manufatured by their respective companies.  Programming and case design are the major differences, but due to each company building their own I don't know how many part directly interchange.  What is interesting is that Ford's heavy duty 10R140 transmission used in the Super Duty pickups is almost a direct scale-up of the light duty JV 10 speed used by Ford and GM, while GM's heavy duty Allison branded 10 speed used in the Silverado and Sierra is a completely different design.

[silvrsvt]

22 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

What is interesting is that Ford's heavy duty 10R140 transmission used in the Super Duty pickups is almost a direct scale-up of the light duty JV 10 speed used by Ford and GM, while GM's heavy duty Allison branded 10 speed used in the Silverado and Sierra is a completely different design.

 

That is because Ford was the lead for the RWD 10 speed and GM designed the 8 or 10 speed FWD transmission. 

 

[rperez817]

Good information from twintornados and 7Mary3, thank you both!

 

In terms of manufacturing locations for the 10-speed transmissions, they are.

• GM 10L80 and 10L90 light duty - Romulus Powertrain Plant, Romulus, Michigan
• GM-Allison 10L1000 heavy duty - Toledo Transmission Plant, Toledo, Ohio
• Ford 10R60, 10R80, 10R80 Hybrid light duty- Livonia Transmission Plant, Livonia, Michigan and Sharonville Transmission Plant, Sharonville, Ohio
• Ford 10R140 heavy duty - Sharonville Transmission Plant, Sharonville, Ohio

Edited March 4, 2022 by rperez817

[ESP08]

2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Transmission design is very similar, but the transmissions are manufatured by their respective companies.  Programming and case design are the major differences, but due to each company building their own I don't know how many part directly interchange.  What is interesting is that Ford's heavy duty 10R140 transmission used in the Super Duty pickups is almost a direct scale-up of the light duty JV 10 speed used by Ford and GM, while GM's heavy duty Allison branded 10 speed used in the Silverado and Sierra is a completely different design.

 

That is all marketing double speak. 

GM might have developed to 10L1000 without Ford's "cooperation" but like the 10R140 it's essentially just a scaled-up 10R80.

 

"The Allison 10L1000 is a near mirror of the Ford 10R140, with a few proprietary differences to apply to Allison's engineering and currently held patents."  - Next Gen Drivetrain who builds these transmissions 

Edited March 4, 2022 by ESP08

[jpd80]

Interesting that Ford didn’t bother developing a 10 speed to go into the F650/F750,

they swapped the 7.3 V8 for the 6.8 V10 and called it job done.

[Bob Rosadini]

25 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Interesting that Ford didn’t bother developing a 10 speed to go into the F650/F750,

they swapped the 7.3 V8 for the 6.8 V10 and called it job done.

As some have suggested, maybe that is indicative of the  eventual demise of 650/750...sad to say.  And the fact that they canceled an air brake option for the 7.3 in 650/750 with some bullshit excuse  that underhood temps was the stumbling block speaks volumes to this  old truck guy.  

And when I look  at the credentials of this  guy heading up "Ford Pro", I'm convinced....Ford thinks "commercial truck" means pick ups and Transits

Watch what they talk about next week at the Work Truck Show. 

Hope I'm wrong?

[Bob Rosadini]

thanks guys for the education on the 10 speed.

[7Mary3]

4 hours ago, ESP08 said:

 

That is all marketing double speak. 

GM might have developed to 10L1000 without Ford's "cooperation" but like the 10R140 it's essentially just a scaled-up 10R80.

 

"The Allison 10L1000 is a near mirror of the Ford 10R140, with a few proprietary differences to apply to Allison's engineering and currently held patents."  - Next Gen Drivetrain who builds these transmissions 

 

Have to say Next Gear Drivetrain is wrong on that.  David Ames was asstant chief engineer on the 10L1000, he ought to know.  Watch the video around 2:25 and he answers that question.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBocpjvch8M

 

GM originally considered using a version of the 10R140, but very early on decided to go their own way with Allison.  If you look at the 2 transmissions side by side you can easily see they are different animals.   

 

Really not sure where Next Gear came up with their claim that the 10R140 and 10L1000 are the same.  I think they have built a lot of the light duty 10 speed JV transmissions and maybe a few of the 10R140's, and just assumed the 'Allison' 10 speed was the same.

Edited March 5, 2022 by 7Mary3

[ESP08]

15 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Have to say Next Gear Drivetrain is wrong on that.  David Ames was asstant chief engineer on the 10L1000, he ought to know.  Watch the video around 2:25 and he answers that question.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBocpjvch8M

 

GM originally considered using a version of the 10R140, but very early on decided to go their own way with Allison.  If you look at the 2 transmissions side by side you can easily see they are different animals.   

 

Really not sure where Next Gear came up with their claim that the 10R140 and 10L1000 are the same.  I think they have built a lot of the light duty 10 speed JV transmissions and maybe a few of the 10R140's, and just assumed the 'Allison' 10 speed was the same.

 

Next Gear is not wrong nor did they say the 10L1000 and 10R140 are the same.

 

If you what pay attention to what David Ames actually says he confirms it.  

"There was a smaller version of this that was co-developed with Ford.  This was done completely separate from it and done with Allison."  

 

His first sentence makes it clear the 10L1000 is derived from the 10R80 - only that Ford wasn't directly involved with development of this particular Allison branded derivative of the 10R80.  

This is the marketing double speak I referred to.   

 

Looking at the 2 transmissions side by side you easily see they are fundamentally the same animal i.e. derivatives of a common source/architecture.   

 

Next gear came up with their claim based on hands-on experience building and modifying both transmissions.

Every company that builds and modifies both transmissions will arrive at the same conclusion because Next Gear's claim is the reality.   

 

EDIT:  A couple photos to drive this point home.  

Make note how small the Allison 10L1000 input shaft is versus the Ford 10R140.

(Allison on the left     --        Ford on the right )

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by ESP08

[Bob Rosadini]

17 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Interesting that Ford didn’t bother developing a 10 speed to go into the F650/F750,

they swapped the 7.3 V8 for the 6.8 V10 and called it job done.

JP-Thinking about your post.  I  remember reading about the new 10 speed and how it was just a few pounds LIGHTER than the old 6 speed.  My first thought was..."four more gears and it is almost same weight??...how  durable can those be??"  No doubt 10 speeds should improve trucks ability to function in ideal RPM band but was it a question of durability once you got into class  6 and 7???  So was it just a better decision to not sacrifice durability and keep the old 6speed in the class 6 and 7 application?

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

JP-Thinking about your post.  I  remember reading about the new 10 speed and how it was just a few pounds LIGHTER than the old 6 speed.  My first thought was..."four more gears and it is almost same weight??...how  durable can those be??"  No doubt 10 speeds should improve trucks ability to function in ideal RPM band but was it a question of durability once you got into class  6 and 7???  So was it just a better decision to not sacrifice durability and keep the old 6speed in the class 6 and 7 application?

Think about it, the 6.7 Powerstroke makes double the torque that the 7.3 puts out, so IMO, the capacity and durability of the 10-speed gearbox was never the limiting factor. Ford just did the minimum amount of change and just swapped 7.3 for 6.8 and called it job done.

 

With regards to a 10-speed auto for Powerstroke F650/F750, I don’t think it was on the table because of what ESP08 showed in his post above, the Big GM box is that much bigger than the 10R140….

Edited March 5, 2022 by jpd80

[ESP08]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

With regards to a 10-speed auto for Powerstroke F650/F750, I don’t think it was on the table because of what ESP08 showed in his post above, the Big GM box is that much bigger than the 10R140….

The 1st photo is of the Allison and the 10R140.  They are identical in size. 
 

The 2nd photo is of the 10R80 and the Allison.  

[jpd80]

48 minutes ago, ESP08 said:

The 1st photo is of the Allison and the 10R140.  They are identical in size. 
 

The 2nd photo is of the 10R80 and the Allison.  

Yes but the point I was making that Ford was never interested in putting a 10-speed in the F650/F750, 

even if it would have worked fine, I assume the Ford and GM gearboxes in the first photo kind of supports that..

(I suspect that the input shaft sizes in the first photo is not the limiting factor).

 

As I demonstrated with the 6.8/7.3 swap, it was all about least changes, as we suspect was the reasoning for other non starter options that Bob mentioned….it was all about avoiding spending money.

Edited March 5, 2022 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

16 hours ago, ESP08 said:

 

 

 

Pictures of an asembled gear train and clutches don't mean much, but nonetheless I see MANY differences between the 10L1000 and 10R140 on the top picture.  It is true that all 3 basic transmissions, the shared light duty 10 speed, 10L1000 and 10R140 do use the same type 4 planet/6 clutch gear trains and utilize clutch to clutch shifting so in that basic regard they are similar (though I think the 10L1000 doesn't use any one-way clutches while the others do).   But by that same reasoning you could say the both the C-4 and Turbo 350 are just different versions of the Chrysler 904 Torqflite,  3 speed automatics with 2 planet Simpson gear trains and 2 clutches/2 bands.  Looking at everthing else on the 10L1000 I can see far more differences between it and the 10R140 (valve body, cooling, fluid pump, ratios, shift strategy, ect.) than I can between the GM 10L90 and Ford 10R80. Regardless of all that, I did hear from some GM people that they did orignially consider basing their HD 10 speed on the Ford 10R140, but decided not too early in the program.  I think you might be reading a bit much into Ames' YouTube comments, as he does state that the 10L1000 was done completely separate from the light duty JV 10 speeds.  Sure there are similarities between the two transmissions as they are both modern 10 speed automatics.  I have to take what an assistant chief engineer says over what some diesel shop in San Diego says (BTW, they also think the 10R140 is an outgrowth of the 6R140, don't know where they came up with that one because it sure wasn't what I heard).

 

As far was what transmission is better, the 10L1000 or the 10R140, might as well get the ball rolling because I have a feeling that this thread is going in that direction.  So far the consensus seems to be that the 10L1000 has a stronger gear train, but I can't substantiate those claims yet.  If it is stronger it can't be by much, both transmission's internals look increadibly robust.  I will say the GM has having fewer problems with the 10L1000 up to this point, I have seen very few bullitens on it so far.

 

BTW, the aftermarket now has some nice cast aluminum deep oil pans for the Ford 10R140.  Can't believe Ford puts a plastic oil pan on those transmissions.  Didn't they learn from the plastic oil pans on the early 6.7L Powerstroke?        

Edited March 6, 2022 by 7Mary3

[jpd80]

From memory, GM doesn’t use the 10L1000 on the 6500 truck either, preferring a 6-speed auto Alison branded transmission.

[Bob Rosadini]

8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Pictures of an asembled gear train and clutches don't mean much, but nonetheless I see MANY differences between the 10L1000 and 10R140 on the top picture.  It is true that all 3 basic transmissions, the shared light duty 10 speed, 10L1000 and 10R140 do use the same type 4 planet/6 clutch gear trains and utilize clutch to clutch shifting so in that basic regard they are similar (though I think the 10L1000 doesn't use any one-way clutches while the others do).   But by that same reasoning you could say the both the C-4 and Turbo 350 are just different versions of the Chrysler 904 Torqflite,  3 speed automatics with 2 planet Simpson gear trains and 2 clutches/2 bands.  Looking at everthing else on the 10L1000 I can see far more differences between it and the 10R140 (valve body, cooling, fluid pump, ratios, shift strategy, ect.) than I can between the GM 10L90 and Ford 10R80. Regardless of all that, I did hear from some GM people that they did orignially consider basing their HD 10 speed on the Ford 10R140, but decided not too early in the program.  I think you might be reading a bit much into Ames' YouTube comments, as he does state that the 10L1000 was done completely separate from the light duty JV 10 speeds.  Sure there are similarities between the two transmissions as they are both modern 10 speed automatics.  I have to take what an assistant chief engineer says over what some diesel shop in San Diego says (BTW, they also think the 10R140 is an outgrowth of the 6R140, don't know where they came up with that one because it sure wasn't what I heard).

 

As far was what transmission is better, the 10L1000 or the 10R140, might as well get the ball rolling because I have a feeling that this thread is going in that direction.  So far the consensus seems to be that the 10L1000 has a stronger gear train, but I can't substantiate those claims yet.  If it is stronger it can't be by much, both transmission's internals look increadibly robust.  I will say the GM has having fewer problems with the 10L1000 up to this point, I have seen very few bullitens on it so far.

 

BTW, the aftermarket now has some nice cast aluminum deep oil pans for the Ford 10R140.  Can't believe Ford puts a plastic oil pan on those transmissions.  Didn't they learn from the plastic oil pans on the early 6.7L Powerstroke?        

Guys...again you are all way above my pay grade but 7M, these two pix just completely confuse me;

 top photo shows two 10 spds- Ford and GM with the GM noted as having smaller input shaft.....rest looks very similar.

In the RevMax photo what is referred to as a 10L1000, it looks like a completely different animal that is physically MUCH bigger.   Looking at that, no question in my mind as to which has  greater capability....."show me the beef" like the old lady used to say in the BK ad!

Then again there must be thousands of Ford 10 speeds in service in 450, 550 and now 600.  And they are standing up  to  the torque of the 6.7 I do believe.  7M- you are probably the only poster on this site who is in the real  world running a fleet..how about it?

By the way I misspoke in my first post...I said the new 10 speed was a few pounds "lighter" than the 6....Actually I had read it was a few pounds "heavier" and my thought was..."4 more  gears and it is only a few pounds heavier"?  Didn't sound like a good design to  me..again on the basis of "show  me the beef"

I should also add that to me an Allison in a big truck today is a plus....certainly vs my experience 40+ years ago.  And I  think GM capitalizes on that current heavy truck rep-and as JP noted the 6500 GM uses a true Allison...but the "Allisons" in the GM pick ups and 3500, 4500, 5500 are "Allisons" in name only?

[7Mary3]

The 10L1000 gear train is pictured next to the much smaller 10R80 light duty transmission in the second photo, not the 10R140 Torq-Shift.

 

Our fleet has purchased very few vehicles since 2019 due to the pandemic and supply issues, so we only have a handful of trucks with the new heavy duty 10 speeds in them.  No issues so far that I know about.

 

Neither the Ford F-650/750 or the Silverado 4500/5500/6500 use the new 10 speeds, they still use the 6R140 and Allison 1000/2000/2500 6 speeds respectively.  I don't think it's a strength issue in either case, it's just that trucks that size really don't need all the overdrives.

 

Personally, I would like Ford to offer the 7.3L gas engine with the 6R140 in the 250 and 350.  I really liked the 6R140.  

[ESP08]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:01 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

Guys...again you are all way above my pay grade but 7M, these two pix just completely confuse me;

 top photo shows two 10 spds- Ford and GM with the GM noted as having smaller input shaft.....rest looks very similar.

In the RevMax photo what is referred to as a 10L1000, it looks like a completely different animal that is physically MUCH bigger.   Looking at that, no question in my mind as to which has  greater capability....."show me the beef" like the old lady used to say in the BK ad!

Then again there must be thousands of Ford 10 speeds in service in 450, 550 and now 600.  And they are standing up  to  the torque of the 6.7 I do believe.  7M- you are probably the only poster on this site who is in the real  world running a fleet..how about it?

By the way I misspoke in my first post...I said the new 10 speed was a few pounds "lighter" than the 6....Actually I had read it was a few pounds "heavier" and my thought was..."4 more  gears and it is only a few pounds heavier"?  Didn't sound like a good design to  me..again on the basis of "show  me the beef"

I should also add that to me an Allison in a big truck today is a plus....certainly vs my experience 40+ years ago.  And I  think GM capitalizes on that current heavy truck rep-and as JP noted the 6500 GM uses a true Allison...but the "Allisons" in the GM pick ups and 3500, 4500, 5500 are "Allisons" in name only?

 

1st photo is of the Allison 10L1000 and the Ford 10R140

2nd photo of the the Ford 10R80 and the Allison 10L1000 

 

While the Allison does have numerous differences from the 10R140 (as they were developed independently) it is absolutely a derivative of the 10R80 architecture as it the 10R140.    

The Allison was not a clean sheet, designed-from-scratch transmission in spite of marketing claims. 

David Ames did let this fact slip through in the linked YT vid and no I wasn't reading too much into it.  

 

The guys that build and modify these transmissions for improved power capability learn them inside and out and ALL note the design commonality is apparent.  

 

[jpd80]

20 hours ago, ESP08 said:

 

1st photo is of the Allison 10L1000 and the Ford 10R140

2nd photo of the the Ford 10R80 and the Allison 10L1000 

 

While the Allison does have numerous differences from the 10R140 (as they were developed independently) it is absolutely a derivative of the 10R80 architecture as it the 10R140.    

The Allison was not a clean sheet, designed-from-scratch transmission in spite of marketing claims. 

David Ames did let this fact slip through in the linked YT vid and no I wasn't reading too much into it.  

 

The guys that build and modify these transmissions for improved power capability learn them inside and out and ALL note the design commonality is apparent.  

 

 

A similar situation with the completely different FWD  JV 6,8,9-sped autos developed by GM with Ford opting in on the new 9-speed for 2.0 EB but skipping second gear because EB works better without using it. The other 8-speed autos were developed from the earlier JV 6-speed autos because Ford saw benefit in through developing multiple transmissions using the earlier design as a starting point…

 

Whats abundantly clear is that no matter whether it’s a FWD or RWD JV gearbox, there’s enough development differences inside to need different parts in rebuilds or upgrades.

Edited March 8, 2022 by jpd80

[B.Rocket]

Is the ford 10 speed the same between vehicle models, say the f150 and the bronco?

[akirby]

39 minutes ago, B.Rocket said:

Is the ford 10 speed the same between vehicle models, say the f150 and the bronco?

Some use 10r60, others use beefier 10r80.

[B.Rocket]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Some use 10r60, others use beefier 10r8

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Some use 10r60, others use beefier 10r80.

Figured it was something like that. 

1 hour ago, akirby said:

[Dave Rumbaugh]

IMHO, as of manufacturing year 2018, the 10 speed longitudinal Ford transmission is a POS. Dropped shifts, skipped gears, hard shifting, floating between gears, and now the bottom 3 speeds have decided to go on vacation.

What the hell was wrong with the old 6 speed? Dependable and bullet-proof.