Glad I walked

[gom]

Unfortunately the environment exists where a dealer can basically force you out of an order and you have little recourse even if it is your name on the order.

 

Really, that's on Ford. They've got a lot of issues with this process to clean up. Sadly, when a ship is that big -- it generally takes a while to steer.

[akirby]

32 minutes ago, gom said:

Really, that's on Ford. They've got a lot of issues with this process to clean up. Sadly, when a ship is that big -- it generally takes a while to steer.

It’s not on Ford at all.  It’s on state lawmakers.

[gom]

30 minutes ago, akirby said:

It’s not on Ford at all.  It’s on state lawmakers.

 

I'm not sure I'd agree with that.

 

Is the legal, technical, onus on the dealer and the state laws that regulate them? Sure.

 

Could Ford just send the right invoice price to begin with and solve the root of most problems on the front end? Yes. It is within that perspective that I see many of the most common dealer issues as being on Ford.

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, gom said:

Unfortunately, the environment exists where a dealer can basically force you out of an order and you have little recourse even if it is your name on the order.

 

Really, that's on Ford. They've got a lot of issues with this process to clean up. Sadly, when a ship is that big -- it generally takes a while to steer.

 

It's a matter of ethics and business practices. Ford's price protection policy for retail factory orders was established decades ago to protect the retail customer. Technically, the information is disclosed by Ford to the Dealer, but the honorable and ethical practice is for the Dealer to protect the customer at the original pricing in effect at the time the order was placed. Unfortunately, there are too many dealerships that use Ford price increases as an opportunity to increase their profit margin at the expense of future customer business, loyalty, etc.    

[Mister Bill]

2 hours ago, gom said:

 

I'm not sure I'd agree with that.

 

Is the legal, technical, onus on the dealer and the state laws that regulate them? Sure.

 

Could Ford just send the right invoice price to begin with and solve the root of most problems on the front end? Yes. It is within that perspective that I see many of the most common dealer issues as being on Ford.

Window sticker/invoice follows the vehicle, not the buyer who placed the order. Vehicles are invoiced at current pricing at the time they are built, not former pricing when they were ordered. The reason being, if the buyer who placed the order does not take delivery, the vehicle is then switched to dealer stock at current pricing. If Ford invoiced at the order date, the vehicle's window sticker/invoice would not be in line with current dealer stock pricing. Price protection is to protect the retail customer, not dealer stock inventory. This is why Ford reimburses the dealer only after they can confirm a name match. Ford is not at fault in this regard, dealers playing stupid to use the PP as added profit are the villains here. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mister Bill

[Bluedust11]

It’s the worst feeling when the low ball your trade in. I’ve had it done to me a few times now. It does seem like they try to make the set amount of profit they have in mind, one way or the other. 

 

I shopped between the 2 Ford dealers in my town. 
I initially went where my Dad has bought a few Fords, they are smaller and staffed by some older guys. The sales guy we got tried his best to be helpful but really was slow on the computer making our build.

 

Then I went to the larger flashier Ford dealer in town because they had some F-150s in stock and I was undecided if I needed the 250 or not. 
The sales reps there were young and confident.  Fast with the builds and seemed knowledgeable. 
When I decided to buy they wouldn’t budge from MRSP.. I’m a first responder in our town and asked for a least a small discount but they said nope,  and totally screwed me on the trade in. $1000 lower than the KBB range. 
So I went back to the small, old Ford dealer and they gave me $1000 off MRSP for being a first responder and the top KBB range for my trade-in. 
My sales rep and his manager may not be good at replying to emails or fast with the computer but they seem to be ethical and cultivate loyalty, which matters more to me in the end. 
 

you wouldn’t know it by how much I complain on here about a lack of emails though.

 

 

[akirby]

3 hours ago, gom said:

 

I'm not sure I'd agree with that.

 

Is the legal, technical, onus on the dealer and the state laws that regulate them? Sure.

 

Could Ford just send the right invoice price to begin with and solve the root of most problems on the front end? Yes. It is within that perspective that I see many of the most common dealer issues as being on Ford.

I see your point but in addition to what Mister Bill points out, you’re asking Ford to modify their system that only has one price today and make it track multiple prices based on order type and order date.  That’s not a trivial change for what isn’t even an issue in normal times where order to invoice is less than 2 months.

 

However you’re also missing the even simpler remedy - you should have a signed buyers order when you place your order that shows what you’re paying whether it’s MSRP, invoice, x plan, adm or no adm, etc etc.  If you had that then it’s a moot point.

[gom]

16 minutes ago, akirby said:

I see your point but in addition to what Mister Bill points out, you’re asking Ford to modify their system that only has one price today and make it track multiple prices based on order type and order date.  That’s not a trivial change for what isn’t even an issue in normal times where order to invoice is less than 2 months.

 

However you’re also missing the even simpler remedy - you should have a signed buyers order when you place your order that shows what you’re paying whether it’s MSRP, invoice, x plan, adm or no adm, etc etc.  If you had that then it’s a moot point.

 

I'm not without understanding of the nature of large companies and how they move, as I said it's a big ship and those are slow to turn, I absolutely get it.

 

As for the remedy, that's the part I'm saying Ford could do a better job on. Yes, there are legal remedies. There is no circumstance under which a buyer will win enforcing a buyers order. Yes, you'll win in court -- but ultimately you lose. Which, I totally get was your point is that's on the lawmakers and states, and you are right, it is. 

I was merely stating Ford could do better in this regard to prevent the dealers from having this 'truth to tell a lie' approach to take advantage of buyers.

I'm not trying to make a Ford is the big bad wolf argument, I'm merely stating Ford is in a position they could prevent some of these big issues by making changes on their end. 

As you said, they'd have to modify existing processes to implement such a change. Like most big corporations -- they created a dozen new processes on the back-end. I say that jestingly, but there's probably a lot of truth to it.

[akirby]

29 minutes ago, gom said:

 

I'm not without understanding of the nature of large companies and how they move, as I said it's a big ship and those are slow to turn, I absolutely get it.

 

As for the remedy, that's the part I'm saying Ford could do a better job on. Yes, there are legal remedies. There is no circumstance under which a buyer will win enforcing a buyers order. Yes, you'll win in court -- but ultimately you lose. Which, I totally get was your point is that's on the lawmakers and states, and you are right, it is. 

I was merely stating Ford could do better in this regard to prevent the dealers from having this 'truth to tell a lie' approach to take advantage of buyers.

I'm not trying to make a Ford is the big bad wolf argument, I'm merely stating Ford is in a position they could prevent some of these big issues by making changes on their end. 

As you said, they'd have to modify existing processes to implement such a change. Like most big corporations -- they created a dozen new processes on the back-end. I say that jestingly, but there's probably a lot of truth to it.

 

it’s not a process change it’s a system change and it’s not trivial.  I used to do coding and database design so I know exactly how it would be implemented and it’s just not worth the effort for what is a temporary problem with two easy workarounds.

 

Having the window sticker and invoice show the original price gives no more protection than having a signed buyers order with original price. The buyers order is far better because without it the dealer could easily charge over MSRP and say you never had an agreed to price.  Yes they can screw you either way but without a signed buyer’s order you have no leg to stand on.

[gom]

24 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

it’s not a process change it’s a system change and it’s not trivial.  I used to do coding and database design so I know exactly how it would be implemented and it’s just not worth the effort for what is a temporary problem with two easy workarounds.

 

Having the window sticker and invoice show the original price gives no more protection than having a signed buyers order with original price. The buyers order is far better because without it the dealer could easily charge over MSRP and say you never had an agreed to price.  Yes they can screw you either way but without a signed buyer’s order you have no leg to stand on.

 

Right, I am fully aware of what corporate IT departments look like. You're nitpicking language here for some reason? I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make with that. Credentialing is typically what I see people do when they are trying to argue something that isn't based in fact -- which is very odd to me as I'm not trying to argue with you on it but you keep going back to this. 

 

This last part is where you are really missing my point. Which is fine, I'm not claiming to be the best at communicating things.

 

There is a very distinct difference, in a legal sense, between being wrong -- and willfully breaching a contract, intentionally misleading, committing fraud, whatever language you want to use. This is where the invoice with a new price comes in and the dealer gets to play 'wrong'. This is where the use the 'truth to tell a lie' comment was going. Because they have this document from Ford, it opens the door for the dealers to play dumb.

Those two things are treated very differently.

[akirby]

My point is simple.  If you have a signed buyer’s order with the price then everything else is moot because of price protection.  Without a signed buyer’s order they can charge whatever they want because you never agreed on a price.

[Modit2]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

My point is simple.  If you have a signed buyer’s order with the price then everything else is moot because of price protection.  Without a signed buyer’s order they can charge whatever they want because you never agreed on a price.

I've seen you say this over and over again and you are absolutely correct.

And it means NOTHING to the hundreds of thousands of people who are trying to navigate the retail order purchase experience for the very first time.  We may get a email with a printout of the DORA and agree to a price.  We expect to get the price we agreed on.  Ford knows what I agreed to because they required me to sign to validate the order.

It is unreasonable to expect a person who has never ordered a vehicle to learn every possible way for a dealership to screw you over in this process.  The vehicle purchase process now takes months instead of hours and I understand that.  I am willing to do my part and suffer the wait, I expect Ford to do their part and keep dealers in line.  Every franchise agreement states that franchisees must not do things which hurt the brand.

The dealer plays this game every day so they have the ultimate advantage and ultimate responsibility to represent Ford.

No matter how many times people get on here and defend them, I guarantee you that I will hold Ford responsible if my dealer goes back on his word because the dealer is the face of Ford Motor Company.  They have an opportunity to reward my dedication as a customer.

If this doesn't go well it will be the last new Ford I purchase.  In case anybody is watching and thinks I'm not serious about that, it has been almost a decade since I've purchased anything from Best Buy because they refused to honor a coupon.

[akirby]

I totally agree that if a dealer gives you a printout with MSRP then that’s a price agreement..  The problem with Ford enforcing bad behavior is they are very limited in what they can do.  All they can do is cut back on allocation a little bit.  It’s a bad situation.

 

My solution is for the dealer to submit the price along with the COVP form.  If they want to charge an ADM it has to be disclosed up front and signed by the customer.  Or do it online.

[FirstFord22]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

I totally agree that if a dealer gives you a printout with MSRP then that’s a price agreement..  The problem with Ford enforcing bad behavior is they are very limited in what they can do.  All they can do is cut back on allocation a little bit.  It’s a bad situation.

 

My solution is for the dealer to submit the price along with the COVP form.  If they want to charge an ADM it has to be disclosed up front and signed by the customer.  Or do it online.

And that @akirby is where I learned a very valuable lesson. I want required to sign a damn thing or place a deposit. Red flags now but not at that time!

 

 He knew he had me by the short hairs, so that’s why we just decided to walk and go to Parks Ford when the ‘23 order bank opens. To say they’re unscrupulous is an understatement. 

[4thTimer]

18 hours ago, akirby said:

It’s not on Ford at all.  It’s on state lawmakers.

I definitely agree with that as far as trades go. Don't know about other states but Texas only discounts the trade in from a vehicle purchase if at the same dealership and within 30 days of purchase.  So you have to wait months for your order to come in before you negotiate the trade and the dealer then knows they can low ball you on the trade in because they have the sales tax on their side. 

If the trade is worth $40k that would save you about $2800 so maybe they only offer $37k for the trade and let you decide if you want to bother selling it yourself. 

 

For me, CarMax is offering me a surprising amount for my van online. When my truck is close I'll see what Granger offers and go get an official offer from CarMax and then decide if I want to drive or fly to Granger. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by 4thTimer

[FirstFord22]

7 hours ago, 4thTimer said:

I definitely agree with that as far as trades go. Don't know about other states but Texas only discounts the trade in from a vehicle purchase if at the same dealership and within 30 days of purchase.  So you have to wait months for your order to come in before you negotiate the trade and the dealer then knows they can low ball you on the trade in because they have the sales tax on their side. 

If the trade is worth $40k that would save you about $2800 so maybe they only offer $37k for the trade and let you decide if you want to bother selling it yourself. 

 

For me, CarMax is offering me a surprising amount for my van online. When my truck is close I'll see what Granger offers and go get an official offer from CarMax and then decide if I want to drive or fly to Granger. 

@4thTimer consider the KBB online instant cash offer as you get closer to taking delivery to see if you could possibly get more. KBB will provide you with an amount then local dealerships will contact you for the opportunity to purchase it. I had two dealerships fighting to buy my 2010 Yukon XL with 124k, but in great condition. 
 

Just a thought, my friend

[4thTimer]

5 hours ago, FirstFord22 said:

@4thTimer consider the KBB online instant cash offer as you get closer to taking delivery to see if you could possibly get more. KBB will provide you with an amount then local dealerships will contact you for the opportunity to purchase it. I had two dealerships fighting to buy my 2010 Yukon XL with 124k, but in great condition. 
 

Just a thought, my friend

Yes, I'll look there too. Thanks for the heads up. Carmax is already amazingly close to what I paid for it though.  It's like I've been renting the van for $200/month and it's got 35k on it now.

Edited April 23, 2022 by 4thTimer

[NH_Bulldog]

I took my Carmax cash offer received through Edmunds to my dealer.  The Carmax offer was more than what I paid for the truck 3 years and 35,000 miles ago.  The dealer wanted my truck bad enough that they gave me $1,500 more than the Carmax offer.  They put it on their lot for $8,000 more than what they gave me, and it was sold in a week.  It’s like they paid me to drive my truck the last 3 years…..crazy situation.

[FirstFord22]

9 hours ago, NH_Bulldog said:

I took my Carmax cash offer received through Edmunds to my dealer.  The Carmax offer was more than what I paid for the truck 3 years and 35,000 miles ago.  The dealer wanted my truck bad enough that they gave me $1,500 more than the Carmax offer.  They put it on their lot for $8,000 more than what they gave me, and it was sold in a week.  It’s like they paid me to drive my truck the last 3 years…..crazy situation.

And that right there is the reason we walked away from that shady ass dealership. Offering him only 40k for a 2017 F250 with only 50k was a swift kick to the ⚽️ ⚽️! I knew he could easily command so much more!

[NH_Bulldog]

When we were shopping and finding that new trucks were so scarce, my wife asked about just getting a used one (turned out to be just as scarce), but when she saw prices that were within $1,000 - 2,000 of new, she sent me back to work to find a new one.  Happy wife, happy life.

[road turtle]

On 4/21/2022 at 9:44 PM, FirstFord22 said:

On the other hand, Parks Ford of Wesley Chapel was amazing!

I had my oil change and a minor warranty item done there.  Nice dealership.

[FirstFord22]

10 hours ago, road turtle said:

I had my oil change and a minor warranty item done there.  Nice dealership.

@road turtle  They definitely earned my loyalty moving forward, and my referrals. From the GM of sales to the sales associate, the experience couldn’t have been better! The sales associate still sends me text messages to see how I’m enjoying the rig!

[Monoman]

On 4/22/2022 at 1:03 PM, ice-capades said:

 

... but the honorable and ethical practice is for the Dealer to protect the customer at the original pricing in effect at the time the order was placed. Unfortunately, there are too many dealerships that use Ford price increases as an opportunity to increase their profit margin at the expense of future customer business, loyalty, etc.    

 

So Ford (and other manufacturers) puts the dealers in a situation where there is a conflict of interest and the dealer chooses to make more money if they can get away with it.  I AM SHOCKED!!!  ?  The reality is the dealers do this every day and most vehicle buyers go years between purchases.  The consumer simply doesn't have the knowledge and tools to put them on level playing ground with the dealer.  Unless Ford motivates (or forces) dealers to "protect the customer" there will be plenty that will choose greed.

[MackFord]

On 4/23/2022 at 1:16 PM, FirstFord22 said:

@4thTimer consider the KBB online instant cash offer as you get closer to taking delivery to see if you could possibly get more. KBB will provide you with an amount then local dealerships will contact you for the opportunity to purchase it. I had two dealerships fighting to buy my 2010 Yukon XL with 124k, but in great condition. 
 

Just a thought, my friend

I did the same with KBB instant cash offer. I showed the dealer the range for trade, was honest about needing brakes and tires so we agreed to a price in the range that would account for the needed work. Smooth process

[FirstFord22]

Well, they say the proof is in the pudding… the sales manager wasn’t kidding when he said they were going to mark up the price. My WS had an MSRP of $71,785. I attached the Ford email so we can all see the identical VIN. 
 

I hate this dealership with a passion, and I hate even more that they’re going to make such profit off of this!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by FirstFord22