Joe771476 Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 (edited) Ford is moving way too fast toward EV's. Edited March 8, 2023 by akirby Removed off topic climate change rant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 39 minutes ago, Joe771476 said: Ford is moving way too fast toward EV's. Just the opposite. All legacy automakers, including Ford, are still making up for lost time in terms of the inevitable transition to 100% electric vehicles. These automakers didn't take BEV seriously until a few years ago and are struggling to meet demand for them nowadays. All things considered, Ford is in better shape than Stellantis with BEV strategy, especially in the U.S. market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: Just the opposite. All legacy automakers, including Ford, are still making up for lost time in terms of the inevitable transition to 100% electric vehicles. These automakers didn't take BEV seriously until a few years ago and are struggling to meet demand for them nowadays. All things considered, Ford is in better shape than Stellantis with BEV strategy, especially in the U.S. market. There is no doubt demand for BEVs, but at what cost? Other than Tesla, is anyone actually making money from BEVs? Just read that Rivian is struggling and may be looking for financial help. Tesla may be an exception but based on manufacturing expensive vehicles only a small percentage of population can afford. Same can be said about Lucid and a couple of others. Just asking if anyone has been able to profit from BEVs manufactured for, and purchased by, the masses in volume? And I’m not disagreeing that BEVs will be a better business in the future when batteries are dirt cheap and electric vehicles cost less than ICE. I’m wondering how close are we to BEV profitability as it relates to normal buyers, not just the rich? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 Personally, I don't have an issue with how hard Ford is pushing the BEV rollout. If they are going to get a head of the game, they'll need to be out front. It's going to take some time, and resources to get there. But that's the only way the old Three will make it in the long run. I am concerned that Ford will be dropping the ICE market too soon for myself. I get minimal improvements to ICE engines. But I live in the frigid tundra of North Dakota. I may be able to move one vehicle to BEV. Wouldn't really want to right now until range is better. Especially in the cold. But I'd still need my other vehicle to be a ICE/Hybrid to take me on the longer trips. I'm just hoping 10 years from now, Ford still has a couple of ICE choices for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: There is no doubt demand for BEVs, but at what cost? Other than Tesla, is anyone actually making money from BEVs? Just read that Rivian is struggling and may be looking for financial help. Tesla may be an exception but based on manufacturing expensive vehicles only a small percentage of population can afford. Same can be said about Lucid and a couple of others. Just asking if anyone has been able to profit from BEVs manufactured for, and purchased by, the masses in volume? And I’m not disagreeing that BEVs will be a better business in the future when batteries are dirt cheap and electric vehicles cost less than ICE. I’m wondering how close are we to BEV profitability as it relates to normal buyers, not just the rich? The point is that your arguing semantics at this point-the industry as a whole is moving to BEVs because of government regulations that are coming in the next 10-12 years. There will be enough battery capacity in the US alone to build 10 million battery powered vehicles in the next 7 years, which would account for almost 60% of all auto sales. That alone will drop prices there. BEVs are expensive now because of lack of battery production that will be finally addressed in the next couple of years. The Auto industry works on 5-10 year cycles and needs to be looking at where things will be in 2028-2030, not rehashing ICE products because the market will shrink and eventually go away eventually. The legacy ICE will support the transition to that point, but to keep investing billions into a product that as a very finite sell/use by date is stupid. Not investing in the future now is going to really hurt companies that aren't invested in BEVs now-you'll be rolling out your first BEV product in a few years, while the competition has learned from its mistakes and is on their 2nd or 3rd gen products. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, 92merc said: Personally, I don't have an issue with how hard Ford is pushing the BEV rollout. If they are going to get a head of the game, they'll need to be out front. It's going to take some time, and resources to get there. But that's the only way the old Three will make it in the long run. I am concerned that Ford will be dropping the ICE market too soon for myself. I get minimal improvements to ICE engines. But I live in the frigid tundra of North Dakota. I may be able to move one vehicle to BEV. Wouldn't really want to right now until range is better. Especially in the cold. But I'd still need my other vehicle to be a ICE/Hybrid to take me on the longer trips. I'm just hoping 10 years from now, Ford still has a couple of ICE choices for me. If you only got 200-250 mile range but could recharge in say 10 minutes with almost as easily as buying gas now, would that change your math? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: If you only got 200-250 mile range but could recharge in say 10 minutes with almost as easily as buying gas now, would that change your math? For my willingness to buy a BEV, yes. But that would have to be 200 miles in ND winter. I've seen some BEV's lose almost 50% range in our cold weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 92 Merc, same situation down the glacier here in southwest Minnesota- Thin on charging points, Tesla dealer almost 200 miles away, and no electric cars you'd want to buy in stock. In our rural areas it will take decades to get to 80% electric, and for many applications IC power will still be needed but with renewable fuels. In a way we're getting screwed because while we can't take advantage of electrification, our tax dollars and automakers budgets are going to electrification while we get stuck with a limited selection of 2020 tech IC vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 49 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: In a way we're getting screwed because while we can't take advantage of electrification, our tax dollars and automakers budgets are going to electrification while we get stuck with a limited selection of 2020 tech IC vehicles. Huh? Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act is investing in charging stations with a focus on Rural areas... https://www.transportation.gov/rural/ev/toolkit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 Quite aware of that funding, I'm on a small town city council and looked into getting us a charging station. First problem is that most of these are cost shares and our city doesn't have the funding. Then there's the other stuff that goes with it- It'd probably be at the park so we'd need new restrooms, etc. and internet access for billing. And where will we get the power? Local grid would probably crash if two F150 electrics plugged in at once and it'd take about 15 miles of new lines to get to enough kilowatts. Then a couple more F150 electrics and maybe a Tesla truck too plug in during peak use time and we have to pay a dollar a kilowatt hour for electricity... I guarantee the charging station would be shut down and ordered removed at the next council meeting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 3 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The point is that your arguing semantics at this point-the industry as a whole is moving to BEVs because of government regulations that are coming in the next 10-12 years. There will be enough battery capacity in the US alone to build 10 million battery powered vehicles in the next 7 years, which would account for almost 60% of all auto sales. That alone will drop prices there. BEVs are expensive now because of lack of battery production that will be finally addressed in the next couple of years. The Auto industry works on 5-10 year cycles and needs to be looking at where things will be in 2028-2030, not rehashing ICE products because the market will shrink and eventually go away eventually. The legacy ICE will support the transition to that point, but to keep investing billions into a product that as a very finite sell/use by date is stupid. Not investing in the future now is going to really hurt companies that aren't invested in BEVs now-you'll be rolling out your first BEV product in a few years, while the competition has learned from its mistakes and is on their 2nd or 3rd gen products. Not arguing at all; just trying to understand how a company’s stock can plummet from around $125 to about $15 in a short period. Even if stock price was initially overpriced based on speculation, my understanding suggests that profit (or losses) are worse than originally speculated by investors. My question remains — who’s making money, other than Tesla and perhaps other high-end manufacturers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 And doesn't get any better when you travel- Nearest chargers are 20 miles away, couple Teslas and a CCS that never get used. Most frequent trip from here is to MSP metro and at 120 miles it'd be iffy in the winter. Couple small town Muni electric utilities have put in CCS, took forever to get hooked up, I've never seen them used, and still working? Going west into South Dakota is hopeless, an open charger at Sioux Falls Harley, couple Teslas on I90 to Rapid City, and the rest of the state is pretty barren. And I don't count on chargers 'til they're hooked up and working- South Dakota was supposed to get a couple open chargers between Sioux Falls and Rapid City funded by TDI settlement dollars but it never happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: Not arguing at all; just trying to understand how a company’s stock can plummet from around $125 to about $15 in a short period. Even if stock price was initially overpriced based on speculation, my understanding suggests that profit (or losses) are worse than originally speculated by investors. My question remains — who’s making money, other than Tesla and perhaps other high-end manufacturers? I assume you're talking about Rivian. Investors figured that Rivian would be the next Tesla, so they bought in hoping to make the big $$$$. When it became clear that Rivian has many, many problems that would take time (and more money to solve), the investors bailed. Jury's out whether Rivian will survive the mess they are in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 I hear many people say that since since there are currently no or few EV chargers in my area, EV's will never be practical. Remember that the number and location of charging locations are in part a refection of where and how many BEV are in use in a given area. As BEV's become more popular more charging stations will be built. May not happen overnight, but it is happening. Would not at all be surprised to hear someone one day say they will not buy an ICE vehicle because the nearest gas station is 40 miles away..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 9, 2023 Author Share Posted March 9, 2023 3 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: I hear many people say that since since there are currently no or few EV chargers in my area, EV's will never be practical. Remember that the number and location of charging locations are in part a refection of where and how many BEV are in use in a given area. As BEV's become more popular more charging stations will be built. May not happen overnight, but it is happening. Would not at all be surprised to hear someone one day say they will not buy an ICE vehicle because the nearest gas station is 40 miles away..... That is what exactly is happening in my area-since this past summer or so I've seen new Tesla Superchargers going into local Convenience store chain that sells gas also (Wawa) and all the local Targets are getting level 2 chargers in their parking lots. I haven't been past the local Walmart lately, but they are getting Electrify America Charging stations apparently. The charging situation in most areas is going to be significantly different then it is currently for most of the country. We are still in the crawling stage, but I expect in about 5 years that owning a BEV won't be as big of an issue as it is now for some people who cant charge at home. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 Right now we've got darn near as many chargers as electric cars in my county- A half dozen chargers for a bakers dozen electric cars, and over half of them are plug in hybrids. And this isn't podunk- We're a county of 25,000 with a state university and over 60% of the population lives in cities. There is no demand for chargers here, we just need enough tow trucks to get the lost Tesla drivers home to the big cities... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 9, 2023 Author Share Posted March 9, 2023 7 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Right now we've got darn near as many chargers as electric cars in my county- A half dozen chargers for a bakers dozen electric cars, and over half of them are plug in hybrids. And this isn't podunk- We're a county of 25,000 with a state university and over 60% of the population lives in cities. There is no demand for chargers here, we just need enough tow trucks to get the lost Tesla drivers home to the big cities... I have a couple towns within a 5-10 mile radius of my house that have 2-3x population in my area...then again I do live in one of the most densely populated areas in the world too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 Stellantis announced a couple days ago that it is partnering with the "Electrification of Things" (EOT) company Vehya to get its U.S. dealers equipped with EV chargers and related infrastructure including localized renewable energy such as solar panels and wind turbines. Stellantis Media - Stellantis Partners With Detroit-based Vehya to Become One of Its Preferred EV Charger Installers for US Dealers (stellantisnorthamerica.com) Highlights. Announcement is the next step in Stellantis’ plans to prepare its U.S. dealer network for electrified future and support evolving needs of consumers Partnership with Vehya will offer individual, comprehensive evaluations and EV integration services to the 2,600-plus Stellantis dealers in the U.S. network To date, more than 73% of U.S. dealers are in the process of assessing their individual readiness Vehya is one of 15 companies that will graduate from the National Black Supplier Development Program, a program built to bring awareness to the capabilities of Stellantis’ diverse supply base Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 2 hours ago, silvrsvt said: then again I do live in one of the most densely populated areas in the world too. Do you live in the Philippines, Bangledesh, or Haiti or ...? Top 10 most densely populated cities: Manila, Philippines (119,600/mi2) Pateros, Philippines (94,400/mi2) Mandaluyong, Philippines (90,460/mi2) Baghdad, Iraq (85,140/mi2) Mumbai, India (83,660/mi2) Dhaka, Bangladesh (75,290/mi2) Caloocan, Philippines (72,490/mi2) Port-au-Prince, Haiti (70,950/mi2) Bnei Brak, Israel (70,810/mi2) Levallois-Perret, France (68,460/mi2) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 Good to see Stelantis pushing charging sites at dealerships, this has real potential to drive showroom, parts, and service traffic while customers wait for their cars to charge. Unfortunately a lot of dealerships look at charge sites as a liability they're stuck with and use them as a parking spot for EVs in stock with fully charged batteries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 The greatest challenge I see for charging is that it is not at all comparable with fueling cars at gas stations, and will likely introduce new problems I haven’t seen solutions for yet. At least not solutions that sound workable. For instance, I live in a community of about 50,000 people and there are a few chargers along where community borders an Interstate. I’m not aware of any chargers within community and doubt many will be added because most residents live in private homes and all have garages. BEV owners will undoubtedly charge at home with exception of the few who live in apartments. With BEVs having plenty of range to cover daily driving, very few of my neighbors will likely use remote chargers on a regular basis. This is very different than gas stations in the past that supplied all energy 100% of the time. As I’ve mentioned before, the problem I see is that when we approach 100% BEV adoption, a very large percentage of driving will be powered from home chargers most of the time. However, during unusual long-distance travel periods, like major holidays, BEVs requiring charging away from home will go up exponentially for just a few days, then return back to home charging. Can we add enough chargers along highways to meet peak charging needs given that if we do, they will sit idle most of the time? Wouldn’t that make charging during unusual travel events extremely expensive? It’s either that or not having enough chargers to meet peak demand. Fleet or home charging I see as predictable, easy, and relatively inexpensive, but enough chargers to handle millions of travelers at Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. is more difficult to visualize. To be clear, I’m not questioning the grid’s ability to handle load (that’s a separate issue), just the financial cost of adding and maintaining chargers that may sit idle over 90% of time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 9, 2023 Author Share Posted March 9, 2023 3 hours ago, Rick73 said: Can we add enough chargers along highways to meet peak charging needs given that if we do, they will sit idle most of the time? Wouldn’t that make charging during unusual travel events extremely expensive? It’s either that or not having enough chargers to meet peak demand. Fleet or home charging I see as predictable, easy, and relatively inexpensive, but enough chargers to handle millions of travelers at Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. is more difficult to visualize. To be clear, I’m not questioning the grid’s ability to handle load (that’s a separate issue), just the financial cost of adding and maintaining chargers that may sit idle over 90% of time. Most gas stations never have all their pumps open either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 36 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Most gas stations never have all their pumps open either. It’s a math thing. Very different IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 6 hours ago, Rick73 said: It’s a math thing. Very different IMO. Why would it be any different with a charging station? A charging station would be like a telephone booth-well with the high current lines Yeah there is going to be hiccups along the way, but if more people use them the less issues their will be because people will notice issues and hopefully they'll be fixed sooner because of that demand. Its a different tech and expecting it to act EXACTLY the same way as a gas station is a bit disingenuous. If anything, charging (at some point) would be easier than gas stations since nearly anywhere you go that has electric could charge a BEV. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 Gasoline vehicles will never take off. Gasoline? Where can I buy gasoline? I can feed my horse anywhere. Gas stations didn’t appear overnight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.