Escape, Edge, TC to be Killed

[paintguy]

19 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

 

  On 9/16/2023 at 9:44 AM, rperez817 said:

  On 9/15/2023 at 10:30 PM, sullynd said:

I practically never charged my Mach-E at home, and have never charged my Lightning at home in over a year of ownership. 

Ok, but that puts you into a small group of buyers. Most people I've met can't charge them at work, or most other public areas that they hang around for hours, and they don't want to just sit at a charging station for 2 hours either. You can fast charge your EV of course, but if you do that all the time, you're gonna need a new battery after like 5 years.

I have a neighbor who owned a Chevy Volt PHEV. His use was such that he rarely used the gas engine and used gas only to keep the gas fresh every few months. He recharged always at home. Realized BEV was good for him and he bought a Tesla 3. All charging at home. With my use, about 1/3 (based on mileage) recharging would be on the road. So a different calculation for cost and time effectiveness.

 

[silvrsvt]

I saw this today the local Ford only Cars and Coffee...made me LOL

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by silvrsvt

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, paintguy said:

  On 9/16/2023 at 9:44 AM, rperez817 said:

  On 9/15/2023 at 10:30 PM, sullynd said:

I practically never charged my Mach-E at home, and have never charged my Lightning at home in over a year of ownership. 

Ok, but that puts you into a small group of buyers. Most people I've met can't charge them at work, or most other public areas that they hang around for hours, and they don't want to just sit at a charging station for 2 hours either. You can fast charge your EV of course, but if you do that all the time, you're gonna need a new battery after like 5 years.

I have a neighbor who owned a Chevy Volt PHEV. His use was such that he rarely used the gas engine and used gas only to keep the gas fresh every few months. He recharged always at home. Realized BEV was good for him and he bought a Tesla 3. All charging at home. With my use, about 1/3 (based on mileage) recharging would be on the road. So a different calculation for cost and time effectiveness.

 

I have nothing to add except to say how you quoting me quoting someone else makes it look like a horror story with that formating.

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, paintguy said:

Ford in the unfamiliar position of being a "me too" in the market. Mustang led the pony car, Model T the affordable car. F series trucks, Explorer all leaders. Nearest I can recall is Aerostar/Windstar against Chrysler minivans. Some also say Bronco and Jeep Wrangler, but so many devotees to Jeep and Bronco to have a true rivalry.  Tesla has/had many with a cult like following who worshipped at the shrine of Musk. Got into a debate somewhere with one waxing poetic about running changes incorporated in model year. Not like I didn't attend Engineering Change Meetings, seemingly for eons. (As a Paint Guy, thankfully was rarely the focus of the meeting)

Aside from the major F Series models and larger SUVs and Bronco, I think Ford really struggles to know exactly what the market really wants. It wants to sell profitable compacts but knows charging higher prices also limits the ability to grow sales, so looks like settling for higher price boutique sales to avoid those commodity vehicles….

[DeluxeStang]

22 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

I saw this today the local Ford only Cars and Coffee...made me LOL

 

Ok, that's pretty good. Extra points if when you pop the hood, it's just a drawing of an engine with vroom written under it. 

[akirby]

20 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Aside from the major F Series models and larger SUVs and Bronco, I think Ford really struggles to know exactly what the market really wants. It wants to sell profitable compacts but knows charging higher prices also limits the ability to grow sales, so looks like settling for higher price boutique sales to avoid those commodity vehicles….

I think they get too caught up in the “next big thing” especially BEVs and they end up changing plans too frequently or approving new plans too quickly.  Pick things that are less gee whiz and get something out the door.
 

 They did great with Maverick and Bronco Sport though.

[jasonj80]

21 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Aside from the major F Series models and larger SUVs and Bronco, I think Ford really struggles to know exactly what the market really wants. It wants to sell profitable compacts but knows charging higher prices also limits the ability to grow sales, so looks like settling for higher price boutique sales to avoid those commodity vehicles….

They know what the market wants, they just don't want to spend the money to make the vehicle the general public wants. They listen to the loudest people in the room not the smartest with the data. The problem is they are slowly turning their prized vehicles into commodity vehicles. The Bronco Sport is at commodity level now; they let vehicles lag way to long without small updates. (Sync 4, digital cluster, etc ) When the average lease is 36 months and your update schedule is 48-60 months you force people to shop around. I'm not going to pay $200 more for the less than same vehicle (you know because the new one will have less equipment from decontenting) 

They continually miss opportunity in various markets with product, they live in a bubble in Dearborn(Detroit) and look east to whom they should emulate for most product. (Part of me thinks had Fields not announced the Bronco and made a huge deal about it coming back when he did the program would have died when GM killed the Jimmy)  They are in a constant state of disarray in product plans where things start and stop at a whim of some executive or program director that make snap decisions with more of the idea "I did something" than if what they did was actually good. If it's not good they get shuffled around in "rotation" to another part of the company where they mess up more stuff or get put in the corner until the next round of buyout/layoffs.


 

[rmc523]

On 9/15/2023 at 1:52 PM, Deanh said:

its a cult I swear...like attempting to have a discussion/ conversation with a raging purple haired feminist named Karen....my advice...try and avoid it....that said I am NOT ( although it ,may seem that way ) anti BEV, Im just annoyed at how miserably its performed once the gleam fell off and how its pretty hard to make a business case for it right now, will its time come...I would have to say yes, but Ford , amoungst others made a huge mistake going all in so fast...slow and steady should have been the slogan...

 

Yeah, I like the idea of BEVs, I just don't think the tech is there for all applications despite what certain people insist.  And I think hybrids are a great transition product.  I try to avoid mostly, but sometimes I can't help myself lol.

 

On 9/15/2023 at 2:23 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

But have they really? IMO most of the talk of EVs has been hyped by the Press and lesser extent Ford themselves. They are leaving a market that has been declining for them (Edge) and have a partial replacement in the form of the Mach E. They are adding two new EVs in the next 24 months or so and Apparently the Escape will be replaced by something EV in 3-4 years.

 

GM will have the Blazer, Equinox and Silverado EVs out in the next 6-12 months, and the Silverado is far more advanced the Lighting is...but the T3 will be the response to that. 

 

Then add in the backdrop of CAFE ratcheting up over the next few years....and for you thinking a policial change will stop that is the same as sticking your fingers in your ears, humming and stomping your feet saying it won't. Car companies will push back against that change since they are already down the path of going EV and they see it as a positive to their bottom line once they get the kinks worked out. 

 

Eh, I'd argue Edge is declining because it's well past its sell by date - the current gen dates back to 2015, now 8 years old, with some decent exterior changes, but next to no changes inside, apart from the center screen.  No wonder customers aren't as plentiful as before.

 

On 9/15/2023 at 5:35 PM, rperez817 said:

 

Mustang Mach-E isn't supposed to "work for everyone" and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Mach-E is however by far the best entry that Ford has ever fielded in the 2-row crossover category, and one of the best products in that category overall. Any prospective consumer whose vehicle needs are met by a 2-row crossover and who doesn't hate Ford should at least put Mustang Mach-E on their test drive list.

 

Except, its form factor only works for certain buyers - for those that want a car like ride at a higher height, it's a no-go.

 

 

On 9/17/2023 at 2:12 PM, silvrsvt said:

I saw this today the local Ford only Cars and Coffee...made me LOL

 

 

Haha, that's great!

 

23 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

They know what the market wants, they just don't want to spend the money to make the vehicle the general public wants. They listen to the loudest people in the room not the smartest with the data. The problem is they are slowly turning their prized vehicles into commodity vehicles. The Bronco Sport is at commodity level now; they let vehicles lag way to long without small updates. (Sync 4, digital cluster, etc ) When the average lease is 36 months and your update schedule is 48-60 months you force people to shop around. I'm not going to pay $200 more for the less than same vehicle (you know because the new one will have less equipment from decontenting) 

They continually miss opportunity in various markets with product, they live in a bubble in Dearborn(Detroit) and look east to whom they should emulate for most product. (Part of me thinks had Fields not announced the Bronco and made a huge deal about it coming back when he did the program would have died when GM killed the Jimmy)  They are in a constant state of disarray in product plans where things start and stop at a whim of some executive or program director that make snap decisions with more of the idea "I did something" than if what they did was actually good. If it's not good they get shuffled around in "rotation" to another part of the company where they mess up more stuff or get put in the corner until the next round of buyout/layoffs.


 

 

I agree - Ford has a bad habit of letting product rot on the vine with too infrequent refreshes, and de-contenting on top of that.

[paintguy]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:43 PM, jasonj80 said:

They know what the market wants, they just don't want to spend the money to make the vehicle the general public wants. They listen to the loudest people in the room not the smartest with the data. The problem is they are slowly turning their prized vehicles into commodity vehicles. The Bronco Sport is at commodity level now; they let vehicles lag way to long without small updates. (Sync 4, digital cluster, etc ) When the average lease is 36 months and your update schedule is 48-60 months you force people to shop around. I'm not going to pay $200 more for the less than same vehicle (you know because the new one will have less equipment from decontenting)


 

The Bronco Sport seems a good example. Ruggedized appearing Escape. Had a 2001 Escape XLT. Interior was plain but serviceable. Sound control, more old SUV than passenger car. Replaced with a 2009 Escape Hybrid Limited. Yes, higher price, I paid. Got Government hybrid tax credit and for the stimulus for the recession. But 2009 Escape limited was a revelation compared to the 2001. Much better sound control, seat comfort. Electronics up to date for the day. Loved both Escapes. For a long trip, I'd ride in the 2009 Escape to this day. 

So there is a case for introducing higher lines to some models. Some who are looking for the low cost vehicle may find economies of de-contenting may not give the nostalgic price, but will result in a nostalgic feel. 

PS my significant other traded the 2009 Escape Hybrid Limited for a competitor vehicle. She rode in Escape and even looked at Lincoln MKC or Corsair. She felt the Escape less comfortable than her '09 and Corsair too cramped, lacking in cargo space. Hope to get her back in a Ford Family product. Feels like what us Catholics used to call a mixed marriage!