Escape, Edge, TC to be Killed

[silvrsvt]

25 minutes ago, Deanh said:

I would have to say yes, but Ford , amoungst others made a huge mistake going all in so fast...slow and steady should have been the slogan...

 

But have they really? IMO most of the talk of EVs has been hyped by the Press and lesser extent Ford themselves. They are leaving a market that has been declining for them (Edge) and have a partial replacement in the form of the Mach E. They are adding two new EVs in the next 24 months or so and Apparently the Escape will be replaced by something EV in 3-4 years.

 

GM will have the Blazer, Equinox and Silverado EVs out in the next 6-12 months, and the Silverado is far more advanced the Lighting is...but the T3 will be the response to that. 

 

Then add in the backdrop of CAFE ratcheting up over the next few years....and for you thinking a policial change will stop that is the same as sticking your fingers in your ears, humming and stomping your feet saying it won't. Car companies will push back against that change since they are already down the path of going EV and they see it as a positive to their bottom line once they get the kinks worked out. 

[Deanh]

11 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But have they really? IMO most of the talk of EVs has been hyped by the Press and lesser extent Ford themselves. They are leaving a market that has been declining for them (Edge) and have a partial replacement in the form of the Mach E. They are adding two new EVs in the next 24 months or so and Apparently the Escape will be replaced by something EV in 3-4 years.

 

GM will have the Blazer, Equinox and Silverado EVs out in the next 6-12 months, and the Silverado is far more advanced the Lighting is...but the T3 will be the response to that. 

 

Then add in the backdrop of CAFE ratcheting up over the next few years....and for you thinking a policial change will stop that is the same as sticking your fingers in your ears, humming and stomping your feet saying it won't. Car companies will push back against that change since they are already down the path of going EV and they see it as a positive to their bottom line once they get the kinks worked out. 

Absolutely agree 100 percent with all the hype...but reality is having to sustain the BEV program through ICE sales underlines my point....IMO they jumped in too big...too soon...Dealers lots prove the point...BEVs are sitting...and even the incentives arent helping that much...the Lightning interest has waned to the point of almost being non existant...same with the Transit BEVS ( perhaps Fords biggest DOH! moment in the last 15 years ) and the "E"s arent exactly setting the world on fire either. Will their time come ?...I would say yes...but right now as far as Ford is concerned, their very existance seems to be ICE dependent....so, do you or do you not replace the Edge with a BEV or something less risky like a hybrid?....thats a business decision Im going to be curious about....  and with you regarding the ever tightening CAFE ratings, thats a rather large handcuff for manufacturers...

[rperez817]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

Mach E is great, but it doesn't work for everyone despite what you say.

 

Mustang Mach-E isn't supposed to "work for everyone" and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Mach-E is however by far the best entry that Ford has ever fielded in the 2-row crossover category, and one of the best products in that category overall. Any prospective consumer whose vehicle needs are met by a 2-row crossover and who doesn't hate Ford should at least put Mustang Mach-E on their test drive list.

[Deanh]

9 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Mustang Mach-E isn't supposed to "work for everyone" and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Mach-E is however by far the best entry that Ford has ever fielded in the 2-row crossover category, and one of the best products in that category overall. Any prospective consumer whose vehicle needs are met by a 2-row crossover and who doesn't hate Ford should at least put Mustang Mach-E on their test drive list.

Unfortunately doesnt matter if its doesnt sell, I wont mention at a loss...but yes, its a niche product that drives and handles well but Im not sure the general public is 100% ready for yet. So from THAT standpoint, perhaps it would be best to literally limit production...kind of ironic that the drivetrain ( ICE ) its deemed to replace is throwing the car a lifeline...

[silvrsvt]

5 hours ago, Deanh said:

Absolutely agree 100 percent with all the hype...but reality is having to sustain the BEV program through ICE sales underlines my point....IMO they jumped in too big...too soon...Dealers lots prove the point...BEVs are sitting...and even the incentives arent helping that much...the Lightning interest has waned to the point of almost being non existant...same with the Transit BEVS ( perhaps Fords biggest DOH! moment in the last 15 years ) and the "E"s arent exactly setting the world on fire either. Will their time come ?...I would say yes...but right now as far as Ford is concerned, their very existance seems to be ICE dependent....so, do you or do you not replace the Edge with a BEV or something less risky like a hybrid?....thats a business decision Im going to be curious about....  and with you regarding the ever tightening CAFE ratings, thats a rather large handcuff for manufacturers...

 

The point is that people/organizations don't like change and will drag their feet kicking and screaming till the absolutely have to do something about it...so Ford was pushing that change instead of waiting for it to become too big to fail. 

 

As for EV sales:

Electric Vehicle Sales Are Increasing Exponentially: Report EVs make up more than seven percent of all new car sales in the U.S.

 

I think there are just a bunch of different headwinds going on at this point with EVs that are affecting them sooner than ICE car sales...there is going to be a breaking point in ICE sales due to increasing interest rates and pricing...the next year or two will look ok, but that is because COVID fucked up sales so badly in 2021 and 2022. 

 

The other thing that apparently I've haven't explained correctly for the past few months-Ford plans are more or less set till 2028. We have a "new" I4 engine, but it doesn't look like we will have anything else at this point, outside of maybe an I6 that has been a rumor for a while.....but at the same time, if the 2035 is the magical cut off for the vast majority of light duty vehicle ICE production, why is Ford going to spend a large sum of money on something that they might only have 7 years to make it back, in the best case? If EV sales hit 50% by 2030, it makes zero sense to invest in ICE products because they'll be rapidly phased out.

 

The sticky part is improving pricing so its roughly equal to ICE and having a better charging infrastructure between now and 2030. 

[CurtisH]

2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Mustang Mach-E isn't supposed to "work for everyone" and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Mach-E is however by far the best entry that Ford has ever fielded in the 2-row crossover category, and one of the best products in that category overall. Any prospective consumer whose vehicle needs are met by a 2-row crossover and who doesn't hate Ford should at least put Mustang Mach-E on their test drive list.

You can keep saying that, but it doesn’t make it true.  We will be replacing my wife’s Edge later this year.  The Mach E is not on the list of vehicles that we are looking at.  It simply is not the best option for us.  It would not meet all of our needs.  We are not willing to compromise when we don’t have to. 

[akirby]

12 minutes ago, CurtisH said:

You can keep saying that, but it doesn’t make it true. 

Like most everything else he says.

[jpd80]

43 minutes ago, CurtisH said:

You can keep saying that, but it doesn’t make it true.  We will be replacing my wife’s Edge later this year.  The Mach E is not on the list of vehicles that we are looking at.  It simply is not the best option for us.  It would not meet all of our needs.  We are not willing to compromise when we don’t have to. 

And that’s the problem here, Ford is racing forward with an all electric vision and forcing existing buyers like yourself to pick either Explorer or Escape, neither of which probably suits your situation 

 

National dealer inventory of Mach E has stabilised at 10,000 vehicles only because production has been sliced back to the previous 5,000/mth mark. No matter how much Ford tries to talk up BEVs, it seems like external pressures are acting against buyers considering.  Mach E was a rescue of an off course vehicle project but I don’t think it will gain sales traction against Tesla Y.

Edited September 16, 2023 by jpd80

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Mustang Mach-E isn't supposed to "work for everyone" and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Mach-E is however by far the best entry that Ford has ever fielded in the 2-row crossover category, and one of the best products in that category overall. Any prospective consumer whose vehicle needs are met by a 2-row crossover and who doesn't hate Ford should at least put Mustang Mach-E on their test drive list.

Mach-e is a solid product for sure, but for people living in apartments without chargers, or in rural areas where the charging infrastructure isn't as good, charging the vehicle is more of a hassle. The sexy styling of the mach-e is also makes it slightly less practical than something like a boxier edge. The mach-e is also relatively expensive relative to a lot of ICE offerings. 

 

We'll see what the gen 2 mach-e brings to the table, if Ford can make it a more affordable, and competitive vehicle by moving it to a dedicated EV platform. As it stands, the current mach-e is one of those products that gets a lot of things right, but definitely can afford to improve in some areas to appeal to a wider audience. 

[sullynd]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

Mach-e is a solid product for sure, but for people living in apartments without chargers, or in rural areas where the charging infrastructure isn't as good,

I practically never charged my Mach-E at home, and have never charged my Lightning at home in over a year of ownership. 

[jpd80]

I don’t think that charging of electric vehicles for apartment dwellers is as big of a problem as most think, public charging is probably a better choice there but really buyers and infrastructure are still relatively low. I think the bigger challenge is convincing more than a small percentage of buyers to switch to BEVs now, the safe option of ICE and hybrids is all too prevalent, still a much easier sell to the majority of Ford’s buyers……how or if Ford can execute mass transition in the next few years will be interesting to watch, I have a feeling that the next big battery revolution to make that happen will still be years away…..

Edited September 16, 2023 by jpd80

[Rick73]

7 hours ago, sullynd said:

I practically never charged my Mach-E at home, and have never charged my Lightning at home in over a year of ownership. 

For context, do you mind sharing how much you drive these vehicles, and how often that leads to charging?  And is BEV only vehicle or is there an ICE as backup or for longer trips?  Just thinking that charging once a week is a lot different than daily, for example.

[sullynd]

I put over 17k miles on my Lightning in its first year, have a 60 mile round trip commute, travel 300 miles rt every other weekend in the summer.  Did four 500 mile rt trips so far.   My truck charges at my garage, and I use EA when I need to fast charge. 

[akirby]

6 minutes ago, sullynd said:

My truck charges at my garage, and I use EA when I need to fast charge. 

But you said you never charge at home

[Gurgeh]

14 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Mustang Mach-E isn't supposed to "work for everyone" and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Mach-E is however by far the best entry that Ford has ever fielded in the 2-row crossover category, and one of the best products in that category overall. Any prospective consumer whose vehicle needs are met by a 2-row crossover and who doesn't hate Ford should at least put Mustang Mach-E on their test drive list.

I am a prospective consumer whose vehicle needs are met by a 2-row (not 3-row, not compact) crossover. But a great number of consumers who are exactly like me won't test drive a MME, nor should we, because we lack the ability based on where we live to do home charging. Otherwise, I would be a good candidate to go BEV. Though I must say, I am just back from a week driving around North Carolina (and to and from NC from the DC area) and, unlike the Washington area, I saw virtually no charging stations (or even charging parking spaces outside supermarkets like I see here) on my trip. I did see a few Teslas in and about the Charlotte area, however, so I'm sure you can find them in the bigger cities. In Hickory, NC where I was staying for a few days? Not so much.

[sullynd]

19 minutes ago, akirby said:

But you said you never charge at home

I don’t. Public garage at work. 

[rperez817]

3 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

I am just back from a week driving around North Carolina (and to and from NC from the DC area) and, unlike the Washington area, I saw virtually no charging stations (or even charging parking spaces outside supermarkets like I see here) on my trip.

 

The Circle K convenience store chain has several DCFC stations in North Carolina and is building many more. Additionally, Tesla has scores of Superchargers in the state from Kill Devil Hills in the Outer Banks to Boone and Asheville in the Appalachians and lots of points in between. Lots of Superchargers are located in North Carolina's neighbors of Virginia, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Georgia, too. Ford BEV customers will be able to use most of those Tesla chargers starting in Spring 2024 thanks to the agreement between Ford and Tesla.

 

Ezra Dyer from Car and Driver reported an excellent experience doing a road trip in the Carolinas in his F-150 Lightning using DCFC at the Circle K station in Boone, North Carolina right across the street from a Tesla Supercharger. The Ford F-150 Lightning Might Not Need Those Tesla Chargers (caranddriver.com) 

Edited September 16, 2023 by rperez817

[rperez817]

9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

how or if Ford can execute mass transition in the next few years will be interesting to watch

 

Most definitely jpd80. I hope what we watch is how Ford executes that transition, both with culling the current lineup of mediocre ICE vehicles like Escape and Edge as well as introducing new BEV that meet Jim Farley's standards of "really great product" as he mentioned at the GE event last week. Because if Ford does not, it faces oblivion. Ford CEO Jim Farley Explains Why F-150 and Mustang Went Electric First | Observer

 

Ford is embracing electric vehicles in full force, aiming to produce two million EVs a year by 2026. But its shift to electrification wasn’t a clearly mapped journey from the beginning. The Detroit auto giant initially wanted to make its first all-electric offering a compact, mass-market vehicle similar to the Toyota Prius but soon realized that was not what EV customers would want, CEO Jim Farley, a former Toyota executive, shared at an event today (Sept. 6, 2023).

“I found that people who buy electric vehicles just want really good shit!” Farley said at a leadership conference hosted by GE in New York City today. “They don’t want science projects. They want a really great product.”

[Gurgeh]

3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

The Circle K convenience store chain has several DCFC stations in North Carolina and is building many more. Additionally, Tesla has scores of Superchargers in the state from Kill Devil Hills in the Outer Banks to Boone and Asheville in the Appalachians and lots of points in between. Lots of Superchargers are located in North Carolina's neighbors of Virginia, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Georgia, too. Ford BEV customers will be able to use most of those Tesla chargers starting in Spring 2024 thanks to the agreement between Ford and Tesla.

 

Ezra Dyer from Car and Driver reported an excellent experience doing a road trip in the Carolinas in his F-150 Lightning using DCFC at the Circle K station in Boone, North Carolina right across the street from a Tesla Supercharger. The Ford F-150 Lightning Might Not Need Those Tesla Chargers (caranddriver.com) 

That's great to hear. I just didn't see any in retail parking lots nor did I run across charging sites in my usual driving around, like I'm used to. In the Washington DC metro area they seem to be all over the place. North Carolina is definitely moving forward more slowly than the area where I live, but the important thing is that it is moving forward. The problem remains that I won't get an EV until I'm able to do home charging, and that is likely to be a few years down the road still.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Gurgeh

[Rangers09]

23 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Mach-E is however by far the best entry that Ford has ever fielded in the 2-row crossover category, and one of the best products in that category overall. Any prospective consumer whose vehicle needs are met by a 2-row crossover and who doesn't hate Ford should at least put Mustang Mach-E on their test drive list.

 

If the Mach-E truly met both those criteria, I expect it would be flying off dealer lots. Unfortunately, locally that's not what is happening, as the Mach-E bubble burst a number of months ago, as they are sitting on dealer lots.

 

We just purchased a new 2-row crossover and having purchased 8 new Fords in the past 10-years, I'm probably not a Ford hater. I can assure you the Mach-E received zero consideration, so it certainly wasn't considered for a test drive, as the PHEV is a vastly superior all-round vehicle, eliminating the 3 key impediments (cost, limited range and limited charging stations) to our purchasing a BEV.

 

The other factor, if I want another Mustang, I'll purchase one with real engine sounds, not something that is silent or even worse, provides recorded engine sounds.

[jpd80]

Think about this,

Ford took their two iconic nameplates F Truck and Mustang and presented BEV versions of both, external forces conspired against ramping up production to meet early interest resulting in a dribble of sales, not the gushing torrent that Ford expected and now that early adopters have moved on, buyers won’t pay premium prices.
This is a real head scratcher for Ford….

Edited September 16, 2023 by jpd80

[paintguy]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Think about this,

Ford took their two iconic nameplates F Truck and Mustang and presented BEV versions of both, external forces conspired against ramping up production to meet early interest resulting in a dribble of sales, not the gushing torrent that Ford expected and now that early adopters have moved on, buyers won’t pay premium prices.
This is a real head scratcher for Ford….

Predicting volume the big factor in profitable and unprofitable. Mach E is interesting as an almost direct competitor to Tesla Y. Y slighty larger, faster and longer range. Mach E more familiar control and much better styled. Tesla Y has some towing capacity, don't think Mach E does. Tesla has Supercharger. Mach E may have supercharger, but Ford has history of backing out of deals, so a customer will not rely on it.  Price is close, but that may have changed as Tesla and Ford have changed pricing several times this year. Both offer few options that are popular. Interiors are stark compared to ICE vehicles. No moonroof option, only a glass roof (thought Ford dropped those in the 50's as it baked you in sunny climes). No leather interiors. Only some synthetic leather. My experience with "synthetic leather" in the home is less than stellar. 

[jpd80]

27 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Predicting volume the big factor in profitable and unprofitable. Mach E is interesting as an almost direct competitor to Tesla Y. Y slighty larger, faster and longer range. Mach E more familiar control and much better styled. Tesla Y has some towing capacity, don't think Mach E does. Tesla has Supercharger. Mach E may have supercharger, but Ford has history of backing out of deals, so a customer will not rely on it.  Price is close, but that may have changed as Tesla and Ford have changed pricing several times this year. Both offer few options that are popular. Interiors are stark compared to ICE vehicles. No moonroof option, only a glass roof (thought Ford dropped those in the 50's as it baked you in sunny climes). No leather interiors. Only some synthetic leather. My experience with "synthetic leather" in the home is less than stellar. 

I’m just mindful of the idea that sometimes a single product dominates a sales space so much that it doesn’t leave much room for competition. I think that’s becoming the case with Tesla Y even though the Mach E is a nice vehicle.

[paintguy]

11 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I’m just mindful of the idea that sometimes a single product dominates a sales space so much that it doesn’t leave much room for competition. I think that’s becoming the case with Tesla Y even though the Mach E is a nice vehicle.

Ford in the unfamiliar position of being a "me too" in the market. Mustang led the pony car, Model T the affordable car. F series trucks, Explorer all leaders. Nearest I can recall is Aerostar/Windstar against Chrysler minivans. Some also say Bronco and Jeep Wrangler, but so many devotees to Jeep and Bronco to have a true rivalry.  Tesla has/had many with a cult like following who worshipped at the shrine of Musk. Got into a debate somewhere with one waxing poetic about running changes incorporated in model year. Not like I didn't attend Engineering Change Meetings, seemingly for eons. (As a Paint Guy, thankfully was rarely the focus of the meeting)

Edited September 17, 2023 by paintguy
clarity

[DeluxeStang]

On 9/16/2023 at 8:44 AM, rperez817 said:

On 9/15/2023 at 9:30 PM, sullynd said:

I practically never charged my Mach-E at home, and have never charged my Lightning at home in over a year of ownership. 

Ok, but that puts you into a small group of buyers. Most people I've met can't charge them at work, or most other public areas that they hang around for hours, and they don't want to just sit at a charging station for 2 hours either. You can fast charge your EV of course, but if you do that all the time, you're gonna need a new battery after like 5 years.