REPORT: Ford Dealers Do Not Trust the Blue Oval

[silvrsvt]

33 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Id say thats Lia Thomas....balls out.....that said...I wonder if they ( the plants) could be adapted somewhat should EVs NOT ultimately be the avenue to pursue. Hate to say this, but personally I see an awful lot of this EV BS as nothing more than flavor of the month ( year ) virtue signalling...you can say you will be releasing 30 new EVs by such and such a date and you are a Media Darling...no one cares youre losing your ass to appese...

 

How is it virtue signaling? Because the government if forcing it? because its changing the way you do business? How is saying oh we are coming out with 30 EVs any different then saying oh we are coming out with 20 C/SUVs 20-30 years ago? 

How many times does it need to be said that the reason the Mach E and Lightning "lose" so much money because of the way accounting is done because a new assembly plant and battery plants are being built? 

[Deanh]

38 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

How is it virtue signaling? Because the government if forcing it? because its changing the way you do business? How is saying oh we are coming out with 30 EVs any different then saying oh we are coming out with 20 C/SUVs 20-30 years ago? 

How many times does it need to be said that the reason the Mach E and Lightning "lose" so much money because of the way accounting is done because a new assembly plant and battery plants are being built? 

its a media darling ( although THAT gleam is wearing off fast ) its Govt mandated and appeals to all the Climate Change groupies subsidized by your hard earned tax dollars...dont know how much more something/ ANYTHING  could scream virtue signaling more....and Ill say it AGAIN, I think its shelf life may be limited....( and secretly Im hoping for some alternative thats actually BETTER environmentally )  and honest question...how is it chnaging the way we do business?...right now that equates to losing money and garnering flooring on slow moving inventory whilst piling monies into a Govt promoted wet dream....time will tell, but right now its a friggen disaster and getting worse....

Edited November 8, 2023 by Deanh

[silvrsvt]

9 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Ill say it AGAIN, I think its shelf life may be limited....( and secretly Im hoping for some alternative thats actually BETTER environmentally ) 

 

I think at this point they would have figured that out already by now. 

[Deanh]

8 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I think at this point they would have figured that out already by now. 

not sure I would agree 100%...its STILL leaves a devastating environental signature not to mention human rights issues...but F--k it right?....sorry, but I think it coat tails on an extremely well promoted AND funded line of BS thats lining some already stuffed pockets...

[akirby]

9 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Ill say it AGAIN, I think its shelf life may be limited....( and secretly Im hoping for some alternative thats actually BETTER environmentally ) 

You’re dreaming and in complete denial.  EVs are here to stay growth will just be slower than some were projecting.  Next Gen batteries will make a big difference and the grid and generation and storage will evolve.

 

People said the same thing about led light bulbs.

[Deanh]

10 minutes ago, akirby said:

You’re dreaming and in complete denial.  EVs are here to stay growth will just be slower than some were projecting.  Next Gen batteries will make a big difference and the grid and generation and storage will evolve.

 

People said the same thing about led light bulbs.

maybe...maybe not...everything about Electric seems to be crumbling at a rather ( according to manufacturers ) alarming rate creating pauses , pullbacks, solvency and avoidance...and thats GLOBALLY....and the whole industry is significantly more complex than an LED bulb ( which I embraced by the way )...Im 100% convinced a majority of those involved are now cursing that they bit off more than they can chew...

[akirby]

38 minutes ago, Deanh said:

maybe...maybe not...everything about Electric seems to be crumbling at a rather ( according to manufacturers ) alarming rate creating pauses , pullbacks, solvency and avoidance...and thats GLOBALLY....and the whole industry is significantly more complex than an LED bulb ( which I embraced by the way )...Im 100% convinced a majority of those involved are now cursing that they bit off more than they can chew...

Your confirmation bias is showing.  You see sales are slowing and immediately jump to massive failure instead of looking at the sales numbers objectively.  All you’re doing is confirming your opinion they’re terrible using incomplete data.

[Deanh]

24 minutes ago, akirby said:

Your confirmation bias is showing.  You see sales are slowing and immediately jump to massive failure instead of looking at the sales numbers objectively.  All you’re doing is confirming your opinion they’re terrible using incomplete data.

beg to dis-agree...all of the power generation industry is also getting nailed....its not just burgening sales its the industry as a whole....a lot af large players are basically pulling out...Siemens is an example..they may come back, but warts are rearing their heads and quite frankly the Business model is getting questioned as being fiscally viable...

[GearheadGrrrl]

Ford's mistake was wasting billions to develop an EV only vehicle (Mach-E) that couldn't share it's development cost with IC and Hybrid vehicles. Thus the Mach-E will be probably discontinued without ever turning a profit. Would have been much smarter to build PHEV versions of several Ford models at much lower cost and put off developing a pure EV until it could turn a profit.

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Ford's mistake was wasting billions to develop an EV only vehicle (Mach-E) that couldn't share it's development cost with IC and Hybrid vehicles. Thus the Mach-E will be probably discontinued without ever turning a profit. Would have been much smarter to build PHEV versions of several Ford models at much lower cost and put off developing a pure EV until it could turn a profit.

 

 

Next time don't let  your bias get in the way of facts

The Mustang Mach-E is built on the Global Electrified 1 (GE1) platform, which is a heavily reworked version of the C2 platform that is used on the fourth generation Focus and third generation Kuga/fourth generation Escape. 

 

Yet again-the "major losses" that the Lightning and Mach E are carrying are due to the way Model E accounting is reported. Lets see what the deal is when BOC and the battery plants that are causing these "huge" loses actually start producing product.

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Building 3 battery plants and an assembly complex on top of retooling at least 2 existing facilities is hardly a measured approach. 

And that’s why the immediate pause on $11 billion spending - maybe a dose of reality that things like buyer embrace of EVs isn’t happening anywhere near as fast as they thought.

 

[GearheadGrrrl]

43 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

 

Next time don't let  your bias get in the way of facts
 

 

 

Yet again-the "major losses" that the Lightning and Mach E are carrying are due to the way Model E accounting is reported. Lets see what the deal is when BOC and the battery plants that are causing these "huge" loses actually start producing product.

My bias is in favor of electric cars, problem is how to transition to EVs ASAP without bankrupting everyone involved.

 

If Ford can keep those plants running at capacity when they come online and for the next few decades, no problem. But can the market absorb all the batteries and EVs the industry is tooling up to build? Will customers buy enough RVs to keep those plants running at capacity? If not, it may be Ford's turn to visit bankruptcy court.

[rperez817]

11 hours ago, jpd80 said:

buyer embrace of EVs isn’t happening anywhere near as fast as they thought.

 

In the U.S. market, it's just the opposite. Consumer Reports' study earlier this year found that "Consumer demand for electric vehicles is surging, far outpacing supply, and automakers who fail to respond quickly to shifting preferences risk losing out on the market share". Automakers Must Increase Production of Electric Vehicles or Risk Losing Customers, New Analysis Finds (consumerreports.org)

 

“It’s time for regulators and automakers to hit the accelerator on electric vehicle production,” said Chris Harto, senior energy policy analyst at CR. “Right now, even under the most aggressive announced plans to ramp up production, EV demand will not be satisfied for consumers who say they would definitely buy or lease one today until 2030.”

According to CR’s analysis, demand for electric vehicles increased 350% from 2020 to 2022. Harto expects that demand to continue to grow as the cost of EVs declines, infrastructure improves, options increase, and more consumers have direct experience with an EV. Without drastically increased supply, consumers could spend years on waitlists.

 

For legacy automakers like Ford who can't rely on direct-to-consumer sales, franchised dealerships also need to do their part too in terms of customer relationship management, promotion, consumer education, and fixed ops for BEV, in collaboration with the OEMs.

[silvrsvt]

11 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

My bias is in favor of electric cars, problem is how to transition to EVs ASAP without bankrupting everyone involved.

 

If Ford can keep those plants running at capacity when they come online and for the next few decades, no problem. But can the market absorb all the batteries and EVs the industry is tooling up to build? Will customers buy enough RVs to keep those plants running at capacity? If not, it may be Ford's turn to visit bankruptcy court.

 

Here is the thing-that isn't happening...there isn't going to be this overnight switch like people are expecting-ICE products are still being planned on being built for at least another 10 years at least on Fords end.

 

All the current news about EVs is completely ignoring what is going on in the rest of the world economically and ICE sales look "good" because of how terrible they where for the past 2-3 years. 

 

 

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

In the U.S. market, it's just the opposite. Consumer Reports' study earlier this year found that "Consumer demand for electric vehicles is surging, far outpacing supply, and automakers who fail to respond quickly to shifting preferences risk losing out on the market share". Automakers Must Increase Production of Electric Vehicles or Risk Losing Customers, New Analysis Finds (consumerreports.org)

 

Your information is from the first half of the year, a big slow down has hit the second half of the year 

 

 

2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

For legacy automakers like Ford who can't rely on direct-to-consumer sales, franchised dealerships also need to do their part too in terms of customer relationship management, promotion, consumer education, and fixed ops for BEV, in collaboration with the OEMs.

Buyer interest in BEVs has fallen off a cliff, all those reservations Ford has have evaporated, there is little interest in Ford’s offerings beyond a few thousand a month of Lightning and Mach E, sales of E Transit is still in the hundreds.

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Here is the thing-that isn't happening...there isn't going to be this overnight switch like people are expecting-ICE products are still being planned on being built for at least another 10 years at least on Fords end.

 

All the current news about EVs is completely ignoring what is going on in the rest of the world economically and ICE sales look "good" because of how terrible they where for the past 2-3 years. 

Interesting that EV makers like Tesla were unaffected by the ICE chip shortages and supply of other critical parts, some of that still continuing for Bronco and Ranger. So now interest rates are biting and quite a few people under mortgage stress, all those vehicles bought last year with ADMs are now underwater financially many folks letting vehicles be repossessed, hard to see prices holding firm.

 

The big issue for Ford is that Lightning sales have not ramped  up as planned and it’s looking like Dearborn Electric Center can handle all the current EV demand and then some. Ford probably won’t need BOC for four or five years, that must be worrying to Farley and the senior brass. I get that we’re in an economic slowdown but it looks like it’s affecting some vehicles more than others.

Edited November 9, 2023 by jpd80
I hate autocorrect

[Deanh]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Here is the thing-that isn't happening...there isn't going to be this overnight switch like people are expecting-ICE products are still being planned on being built for at least another 10 years at least on Fords end.

 

All the current news about EVs is completely ignoring what is going on in the rest of the world economically and ICE sales look "good" because of how terrible they where for the past 2-3 years. 

 

 

ifyou take out the EV losses Fords profitability was actually pretty good the last 2-3 years...correct me if Im wrong...

[Deanh]

35 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Your information is from the first half of the year, a big slow down has hit the second half of the year 

 

 

Buyer interest in BEVs has fallen off a cliff, all those reservations Ford has have evaporated, there is little interest in Ford’s offerings beyond a few thousand a month of Lightning and Mach E, sales of E Transit is still in the hundreds.

watch out JPD...youll be given the "bias" title....

[jpd80]

15 minutes ago, Deanh said:

watch out JPD...youll be given the "bias" title....

Things might be different next year but I doubt that the current circumstances will change much over winter, Ford will be glad when truck fleet orders start rolling in Fo December to February, BEV sales  tend to quieter down especially in the north east snow states, wonder if Texas gets another icy blow this season….things like that through the central an southern states really puts buyers off the boil.

Edited November 9, 2023 by jpd80

[Deanh]

8 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Things might be different next year but I doubt that the current circumstances will change much over winter, Ford will be glad when truck fleet orders start rolling in Fo December to February, BEV sales  tend to quieter down especially in the north east snow states, wonder if Texas gets another icy blow this season….

Sadly Ford seems to have given 'fleet" buyers the middle finger Im sorry to say....was a rather significant part of my own personal business, now due to the types of vehciles they routinely required bing scarce , its become a minute part...

[jpd80]

11 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Sadly Ford seems to have given 'fleet" buyers the middle finger Im sorry to say....was a rather significant part of my own personal business, now due to the types of vehciles they routinely required bing scarce , its become a minute part...

Sad when they take their “eyes off the ball” forgetting the significance of major fleet purchases seemingly to go chase what’s looking more like fickle customers that are hard to coddle…oh well

Edited November 9, 2023 by jpd80

[Rangers09]

15 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Yet again-the "major losses" that the Lightning and Mach E are carrying are due to the way Model E accounting is reported. Lets see what the deal is when BOC and the battery plants that are causing these "huge" loses actually start producing product.

 

It has been many years since I worked with the accountant categorising operational and capital expenses. Based on my business experience, Ford's investments in BOC and battery plants are capital investments, which should not show on the operational ledgers until after completion. Once a capital project is completed, the following year the capital costs are recorded annually as depreciation expenses. Capital project progress payments are recorded as assets. Therefore, the only costs impacting the currently selling BEV's should be their development costs and any production modifications, for those vehicles. Those capital costs are expensed as depreciation, based on the anticipated longevity of each model.

 

US accounting rules may differ, but I can't see how the capital costs for BOC & the battery plants are impacting the profitability of the current BEV's.

 

Hopefully a Chartered Accountant can confirm either way.

[Deanh]

28 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Sad when they take their “eyes off the ball” forgetting the significance of major fleet purchases seemingly to go chase what’s looking more like fickle customers that are hard to coddle…oh well

I would err on the side of Ford going down a more profitable route...they haev also basically cut back MASSIVELY on Fleet incentives and compensation....some of the GOVT incentives on Superduties and the like were absolutely huge ( think 7k and up )...those are gone now, and that cant help the bottomline one iota. 

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

they haev also basically cut back MASSIVELY on Fleet incentives and compensation....some of the GOVT incentives on Superduties and the like were absolutely huge ( think 7k and up )...those are gone now, and that cant help the bottomline one iota. 

 

Since 2020 automakers including Ford have embraced a new, more profitable business model for fleet vehicle sales that eliminates huge price concessions to government and business fleet customers alike and adds high margin software and service offerings. The fleet dumping business model that was common pre-pandemic is dead nowadays.

 

Don't know how that impacts dealerships who do fleet courtesy deliveries, but it's good for Ford as evidenced by the 12.7% EBIT margin achieved by Ford Pro division YTD.

 

[jpd80]

On 11/10/2023 at 5:14 AM, rperez817 said:

 

Since 2020 automakers including Ford have embraced a new, more profitable business model for fleet vehicle sales that eliminates huge price concessions to government and business fleet customers alike and adds high margin software and service offerings. The fleet dumping business model that was common pre-pandemic is dead nowadays.

 

Don't know how that impacts dealerships who do fleet courtesy deliveries, but it's good for Ford as evidenced by the 12.7% EBIT margin achieved by Ford Pro division YTD.

 

Ford Pro is basically Super Duty, Transit vans and some E Series sales - all of those are basically cash cows,

Ford telematics and software not so much…