povertyknob Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Anyone have any ideas what a GM/Cerberus merger might mean to Ford? It looks like it might actually happen. I'm not sure if it puts more or less pressure on Ford in the marketplace. One thing for certain , the UAW is going to be really unhappy about it since there will be more jobs lost if it happens. I haven't seen much discussion of it on these threads. Are we just "whistling past the cemetery?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Didn't Ford want the Jeep brand at one time? Maybe they can get it now, cheap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Didn't Ford want the Jeep brand at one time? Maybe they can get it now, cheap... Unfortunately, now is not a good time for Ford to be making such purchases. If it was, they wouldn't be selling off the brands they already owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Ford gets nearly as much advantage from Chrysler's disappearance but without the up front costs and complexity. GM gets all the headaches of over capacity production and downsizing arguements with UAW and dealers. I'd say its win win for Ford, can't say the same for the other guys..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT_MAN Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Didn't Ford want the Jeep brand at one time? Maybe they can get it now, cheap... Why would Ford want a brand with such lousy fuel mileage at a time like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Ford gets nearly as much advantage from Chrysler's disappearance but without the up front costs and complexity.GM gets all the headaches of over capacity production and downsizing arguements with UAW and dealers. I'd say its win win for Ford, can't say the same for the other guys..... I agree. From what I've read GM would need to "make the merger work" very quickly, because they are said to be loosing at lease a billion dollars a month just as things stand. In reality I think this would mean that with the exception of Jeep and maybe a few models the entire Chrysler and Dodge range may have to go. Restyles of existing GM products would have to happen within months. Headcount would have to be slashed incredibly fast. Engines would need to be swapped out quickly from various models so GM could close engine plants. The whole thing would be a nightmare of epic proportions. GM are said to be having trouble even financing the deal so this is looking like it will be hard to make happen. But if it does happen then I think it's great news for Ford but a bloody disaster for the American car industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Didn't Ford want the Jeep brand at one time? Maybe they can get it now, cheap... If Ford owned Land Rover a merger with Jeep would make sense. They are natural partners in the current economic climate and would complement each other very well indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Unfortunately, now is not a good time for Ford to be making such purchases. If it was, they wouldn't be selling off the brands they already owned. Great response! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobu37 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I say this would be a positive for Ford just by the inevitable reduction in the number of brands competing for the American consumers. Chrysler and Dodge, if not shut down, would theoretically have at least a reduction in the number of models for sale. And the one's still in the market would maybe not be fire-sold as they have been for the last few years. Without the weakest third of the Big 3 around Ford and everybody else would be able to establish a little pricing power over the consumer. This would help Ford move even further north of break-even on the future C and B cars with less competition from fewer domestic makes. Since, theoretically, there are still people out there that want to buy American first, the reduction of options would give Ford a boost by default. But then again, GM might just continue dumping models into rental fleets and fire selling their newly acquired models to keep marketshare growing. Recently, GM has shown a desire to obtain marketshare at all costs so who's to say they want continue down the same path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 But then again, GM might just continue dumping models into rental fleets and fire selling their newly acquired models to keep marketshare growing. Recently, GM has shown a desire to obtain marketshare at all costs so who's to say they want continue down the same path. let them. meanwhile, Big Al wants profits at any cost. which company do you think will survive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) Didn't Ford want the Jeep brand at one time? Maybe they can get it now, cheap... I think a better idea would have been to build the Bronco and do it right. Could have made it a good old fashoned manual transmission, solid axle, tough as hell, hard core, real off road vehicle. Nah, probably would have ended up like the half-assed FJ-Cruiser, a pretender compared to the originals. Edited October 20, 2008 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 IMHO, if this folderol keeps up, a lot of people that want to buy domestic will look at Ford, even if they've never ever bought one, because the product is so improved, plus Ford looks like it will still be around to honor the warranty. Except for the enthusiast models, do you want to buy a $20,000-$30,000 Chrysler anything, if they might not be around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I think a better idea would have been to build the Bronco and do it right. Could have made it a good old fashoned manual transmission, solid axle, tough as hell, hard core, real off road vehicle. Nah, probably would have ended up like the half-assed FJ-Cruiser, a pretender compared to the originals. I agree that Ford does not need Jeep to market an off road vehicle or an SUV. It would be just as successful to market it as a Ford. It's not like Ford has never made vehicles like that in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 After GM "merges" with Chrysler (Dr Evil voice, "....riiiiiiight")....then General Chrysler can pull another merger off and bring Ford into the behemoth. After that we can call it.....American Motors Corporation ......no, wait a minute......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Yea right. Ford already told GM, "no thank you." Remember, they came to Ford first. GM is desperate, and Cerebus is playing them to get what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosetang Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Unfortunately, now is not a good time for Ford to be making such purchases. If it was, they wouldn't be selling off the brands they already owned. True, but much depends on what GM does with Chrysler's brands. If they absorb the Jeep products into Hummer as Hummers, it might be a good idea for Ford to simply buy the name "Jeep." It would be cheaper than buying the brand products and all, and would give them options in the future (including selling the name at a later date as they did with the "Rover" name). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I think a better idea would have been to build the Bronco and do it right. Could have made it a good old fashoned manual transmission, solid axle, tough as hell, hard core, real off road vehicle. Nah, probably would have ended up like the half-assed FJ-Cruiser, a pretender compared to the originals. Got news for you, the FJ Cruiser is not a pretender. I just wish Ford would make something with the FJ's off road capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 About the potential GM/Chrysler merger. First off, it won't be a merger. Some say that what is really happening is that Cerberus wants to trade Chrysler for the rest of GMAC. Since Chrysler is basically worthless, Cerberus will throw in a very substantial pile of cash. That's where this all gets interesting. The result is that GM will have enough money to close Chrysler, and keep the good parts (Jeep and the vans). Cerberus gets all of GMAC, Chrysler Financial, and a big piece of the new GM. A competitor is gone, GM is larger, and now really is too big for the U.S. government to allow to fail. Cerberus figures it can't miss. Now, contrast that with Ford, loosing market share every quarter. Not too big to fail, and if the economy really gets bad, who will get bailed out? I don't like it one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) Got news for you, the FJ Cruiser is not a pretender. I just wish Ford would make something with the FJ's off road capability. Got news for you, the FJ-Cruiser is nothing more than a short wheel base 4-Runner chassis with a cobbled-up body that takes a few styling cues from the '60's FJ-40 LandCruisers. The original LandCruisers were designed by Willys American and built by Toyota. Edited October 21, 2008 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemiman Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Got news for you, the FJ-Cruiser is nothing more than a short wheel base 4-Runner chassis with a cobbled-up body that takes a few styling cues from the '60's FJ-40 LandCruisers. The original LandCruisers were designed by Willys American and built by Toyota. In a world of Soccer Mom CUV's the lame FJ-Cruiser probably does seem like a real 4x4 to some folks, but you're right, it is a poser, and a crappy one at that. BTW, the original Land Cruisers actually borrowed a lot more from the WWII Dodge WC series than from Jeep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 True, but much depends on what GM does with Chrysler's brands. If they absorb the Jeep products into Hummer as Hummers, it might be a good idea for Ford to simply buy the name "Jeep." It would be cheaper than buying the brand products and all, and would give them options in the future (including selling the name at a later date as they did with the "Rover" name). I think GM would much rather fold its Hummer division into Jeep, not vice versa. Jeep is a much stronger brand than Hummer and has a heck of a lot more history to it. GM would be foolish to let it go while keeping Hummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
povertyknob Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 About the potential GM/Chrysler merger. First off, it won't be a merger. Some say that what is really happening is that Cerberus wants to trade Chrysler for the rest of GMAC. Since Chrysler is basically worthless, Cerberus will throw in a very substantial pile of cash. That's where this all gets interesting. The result is that GM will have enough money to close Chrysler, and keep the good parts (Jeep and the vans). Cerberus gets all of GMAC, Chrysler Financial, and a big piece of the new GM. A competitor is gone, GM is larger, and now really is too big for the U.S. government to allow to fail. Cerberus figures it can't miss. Now, contrast that with Ford, loosing market share every quarter. Not too big to fail, and if the economy really gets bad, who will get bailed out? I don't like it one bit. I share your sentiments regarding the "too big to fail" concerns. Years ago the Government helped Chrysler avoid going under in part , I think , to avoid collateral damage in terms of job loss both at Chrysler and suppliers. At this point I don't think we could expect that same help if Ford were teetering on the abyss. The transplant facilities employ so many people that the number of folks involved if Ford went under might seem insignificant to the decision makers. A larger GM might well be a different story. Regarding the vacuum created by having fewer American made products available , I see a real dearth of loyalty so far as buying"American". The lines of product content are pretty blurred anymore. I would hope that customers would look to buy Fords. We need to get better designed vehicles with better powertrain components to market now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 The transplant facilities employ so many people that the number of folks involved if Ford went under might seem insignificant to the decision makers. Ford and its suppliers employ more Americans than all of the transplants combined. I don't think that would be considered "insignificant" by anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Unfortunately, now is not a good time for Ford to be making such purchases. If it was, they wouldn't be selling off the brands they already owned. If Ford owned Land Rover a merger with Jeep would make sense. They are natural partners in the current economic climate and would complement each other very well indeed. I think a better idea would have been to build the Bronco and do it right. Could have made it a good old fashioned manual transmission, solid axle, tough as hell, hard core, real off road vehicle. Nah, probably would have ended up like the half-ass ed FJ-Cruiser, a pretender compared to the originals. True, but much depends on what GM does with Chrysler's brands. If they absorb the Jeep products into Hummer as Hummers, it might be a good idea for Ford to simply buy the name "Jeep." It would be cheaper than buying the brand products and all, and would give them options in the future (including selling the name at a later date as they did with the "Rover" name). I only brought it up because BlueII talked about a new off road "Bronco" a while back that was on the drawing board, but would only come to life if Ford got the Jeep name somehow to justify it and a Wrangler twin. A way to sell Ford's trucks & SUV's under another name like Jeep may not be a bad idea. Remember, Ford did build Jeeps back during WWII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
povertyknob Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 Ford and its suppliers employ more Americans than all of the transplants combined. I don't think that would be considered "insignificant" by anybody. Probably a poor choice of phrasing by me. What I meant is that when there was only the "Big 3" the idea of one of them going belly up was intolerable in terms of job loss and political fallout. It was a "no-brainer" to help Chrysler. With a considerable number of our friends and neighbors employed by transplant facilities and their suppliers I worry that our politicians typical knee jerk reaction to any crisis , which is to test the winds of public opinion , will be influenced by an increasingly negative perception of the UAW. We become less significant when there are people out there saying we made our own problems and should deal with them. I certainly do not consider us insignificant but politicians are a different lot.I know people who would not consider buying any domestic vehicle , and so do you. I know people who won't buy domestic vehicles because UAW workers are , in their opinions , "fat lazy and overpaid". They vote. If Ford gets in trouble and elected officials are tasked with deciding our fate I worry that enough of these constituents could might make enough noise to sway the decision. You and I think we're significant. It's the politicos we should worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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