Ramifications for Ford of U.S.'s new Mileage Rules

[nelsonlu]

(Same content somehow got posted twice; blanking the duplicate post.)

Edited May 21, 2009 by nelsonlu

[Noah Harbinger]

If you can name me one SEDAN that is classified as a light truck I'll see where you are going with this...

 

Plus, I heard somewhere that the PT Cruiser and HHR are going to be considered Cars under the new system.

[nelsonlu]

Plus, I heard somewhere that the PT Cruiser and HHR are going to be considered Cars under the new system.

 

Well, the PT Cruiser is dead...

[Ralph Greene]

B Pickens says Nat gas should initially used by fleets that start out in morning and return at night to same place. Garbage trucks, school buses, postal vehicles, UPS, fire trucks, EMS, etc. Government vehicles also. Some already use nat gas this way.

 

He is aware there is no infastructure to refuel on hi way for normal motorists or over the road truckers. His point is you have to start somewhere.

[NickF1011]

B Pickens says Nat gas should initially used by fleets that start out in morning and return at night to same place. Garbage trucks, school buses, postal vehicles, UPS, fire trucks, EMS, etc. Government vehicles also. Some already use nat gas this way.

 

He is aware there is no infastructure to refuel on hi way for normal motorists or over the road truckers. His point is you have to start somewhere.

 

A lot of those types of vehicles are already using CNG. I know many of the buses that service the airport here are CNG-powered.

[silvrsvt]

What would happen if the cost of diesel continued to drop in the US and leveled off at 20-30% less than gas ??? It could happen !!!

 

It could happen, we could all die tomorrow at the same time. How much more does Diesel have to drop to make it effective along with the additional cost of the engine and whatever its going to take make it pass a smog test? With the US standards being higher then Europe and Japan and nearly everyone dropping light diesel engines for 1/2 ton trucks and cars in North America....it tells me that even if Diesel was cheaper then regular unleaded, it would have to be MUCH cheaper, which would never happen because it would be taxed to death then

[theoldwizard]

A lot of those types of vehicles are already using CNG. I know many of the buses that service the airport here are CNG-powered.

"A lot" That's a pretty broad statement, care to back it up with some data ? A few airport buses do not constitute "a lot".

 

What I know is that many states that used to regularly buy CNG vehicle (many were F150) have stopped.

 

When gas was over $4.00/gallon (and Nat Gas was also at an all time high) the effective cost per gallon was about 20-30% less !

[NickF1011]

"A lot" That's a pretty broad statement, care to back it up with some data ? A few airport buses do not constitute "a lot".

 

What I know is that many states that used to regularly buy CNG vehicle (many were F150) have stopped.

 

When gas was over $4.00/gallon (and Nat Gas was also at an all time high) the effective cost per gallon was about 20-30% less !

 

I never claimed it was most of them, a majority of them, or even a large minority of them. I just said there are a lot of them, which there are. No need to get defensive.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

*cough* *cough* DIESEL *cough* *cough*.

... and diesel is not EcoBoost.

 

Lot's of careers are betting on EcoBoost !

 

What would happen if the cost of diesel continued to drop in the US and leveled off at 20-30% less than gas ??? It could happen !!!

 

Gotta say l hope Ecoboost is a massive success in the US for Ford bigtime, last Ford produced car we had in the UK that jobs depended upon was the Escort nine years ago despite the UK being Fords biggest buyer of cars in Europe we produce zero cars today, When it comes to hire & fire we are 30 times cheaper to get rid of than a German car worker plus you have to pay the cost of retrainning them as well. Honda, Toyota & Nissan all produce cars in the UK they are our biggest employers. The Japanese have never made car that makes it onto the European top 10 best seller list why because we have the diesel engines fitted into our cars thats why Ford Germany have the most secure jobs in the whole wild world they don't sit worring about their careers all day, they have got a bomb proof job building cars with bomb proof diesel engines fitted to them that make the MPG in Japanese Cars look total crap the Prius is considered a overpriced piece of worthless junk with MPG that are not all that by most Europeans, thats why nobody buys it this side of the pond, when you can buy a diesel for half the price that gets much better MPG with a diesel engine that lasts twice as long.

 

Only folk that buy Hybrids like the Toyata Prius in the UK are folk that don't have to pay for them or work for a living like the British Government that raise billions a year in Global Warming & other tax's from Britains motorist, Prius fits the UK Governments IMAGE, but the man in the street that works for a living pays his tax's shuns them because they will never be able to run afford buy such an expensive piece of junk with such poor MPG.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Deanh]

"A lot" That's a pretty broad statement, care to back it up with some data ? A few airport buses do not constitute "a lot".

 

What I know is that many states that used to regularly buy CNG vehicle (many were F150) have stopped.

 

When gas was over $4.00/gallon (and Nat Gas was also at an all time high) the effective cost per gallon was about 20-30% less !

OCTA ( Orange County transport Authority ) uses nothing BUT LPG and CNG buses.........John Wayne and LAX pickups are 90% or more CNG,the Super Shuttle Vans to and from the Airports are also CNG...just had an F-150 converted to CNG for the Irvine company ( cough, almost $20,000 dollars )....from what I gather the Municipalities are exempt from having to be screened for Carb exempt status )

Edited May 21, 2009 by Deanh

[xr7g428]

 

Green Freedom: Los Alamos National Labs solution to energy problem

Los Alamos National Laboratory has developed a low-risk, transformational concept, called Green Freedom™, for large-scale production of carbon-neutral, sulfur-free fuels and organic chemicals from air and water.

 

Currently, the principal market for the Green Freedom production concept is fuel for vehicles and aircraft.

 

At the heart of the technology is a new process for extracting carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and making it available for fuel production using a new form of electrochemical separation. By integrating this electrochemical process with existing technology, researchers have developed a new, practical approach to producing fuels and organic chemicals that permits continued use of existing industrial and transportation infrastructure. Fuel production is driven by carbon-neutral power.

Edited May 21, 2009 by xr7g428

[dwford]

So

 

1. The common person will think that the industry and government are making great effort for the environment.

2. The industry will still be making major improvement to improve fuel efficiency, without over extending themselves.

3. Technology gets developed for and infrastructure gets built for electric vehicles.

4. Efforts are made in all fronts to reduce imported oil and reduce use of fossil fuels

.

 

1: Key word being "thinks." When these rules take full effect, our fleet fuel economy will still be FAR lower than Europe's.

2. Major for the US branches, pitiful for Ford and GMs Euro operations

3. Tech for electric car design, but what infrastructure? We are building a few windmills and some coal fired plants (that'll sure help with CO2) but no new nuclear plants. We will just be importing more electricity from Canada.

 

I am all for major improvements in fuel economy, but billing these new rules as such is a big stretch. My point was that the loopholes in the new law will minimize the actual improvements because the automakers will just play to the rules.

[RichardJensen]

If you can name me one SEDAN that is classified as a light truck I'll see where you are going with this...

I can name two:

 

The Ridgeline and the Avalanche

[theoldwizard]

I am all for major improvements in fuel economy, but billing these new rules as such is a big stretch. My point was that the loopholes in the new law will minimize the actual improvements because the automakers will just play to the rules.

I always said when I retired I was going to make a board game called "The EPA Game". But I realized it would be too long and complicated and no one would ever win !

 

And the beat goes on ...

Edited May 22, 2009 by theoldwizard

[theoldwizard]

Just like hydrogen, there is no current framework under which a CNG supply infrastructure can be built quickly, nor can it be transported as easily as gasoline or diesel. (Yes, I am aware that there is a Civic GX accessory known as the Phil that allows you to refill at home. Not having seen Phil in person, I am not going to say that it creates problems, but I will just say it also doesn't seem that easy to use.)

I will respectfully disagree with you. The infrastructure exists. There are pipelines to most parts of the US (NE still has limited home service) as NG is important in many manufacturing processes.

 

There are already thousands of filling station in most the the major cities and their suburbs. These are high volume filling stations, so the time to fill the tank is not significantly longer than filling most car with gasoline.

 

From what I have read on Phil, it is a "no brainer". Hook it up and the rest is computer controlled. It is slow (overnight for a typical fill up) but it has been tested and approved by multiple safety organizations.

 

And as I said before, when gasoline was over $4.00/gallon, the cost equivalency for CNG was about $1.00/gallon less.

[theoldwizard]

Green Freedom: Los Alamos National Labs solution to energy problem

Los Alamos National Laboratory has developed a low-risk, transformational concept, called Green Freedom™, for large-scale production of carbon-neutral, sulfur-free fuels and organic chemicals from air and water.

 

Currently, the principal market for the Green Freedom production concept is fuel for vehicles and aircraft.

 

At the heart of the technology is a new process for extracting carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and making it available for fuel production using a new form of electrochemical separation. By integrating this electrochemical process with existing technology, researchers have developed a new, practical approach to producing fuels and organic chemicals that permits continued use of existing industrial and transportation infrastructure. Fuel production is driven by carbon-neutral power.

That is pretty wild, clean the atmosphere and make fuel at the same time, if they can make it work on a large scale.

 

Of course we have no spare "carbon-neutral power". No one seems to want nuclear power (despite many advances such as CANDU and pebble bed reactors) and only a small fraction of the Big Stimulus "pie" is going toward build solar or wind power.

[silvrsvt]

I will respectfully disagree with you. The infrastructure exists. There are pipelines to most parts of the US (NE still has limited home service) as NG is important in many manufacturing processes.

 

I know in New Jersey its pretty well everywhere....if you want it...not sure why oil heat is still popular when you can get NG in the same area for the most part...

[battyr]

That is pretty wild, clean the atmosphere and make fuel at the same time, if they can make it work on a large scale.

 

Of course we have no spare "carbon-neutral power". No one seems to want nuclear power (despite many advances such as CANDU and pebble bed reactors) and only a small fraction of the Big Stimulus "pie" is going toward build solar or wind power.

 

Nuclear has had a bad history. It is not a problem with the technology, just a history filled with poor public relations.

 

While little has been done in research in the US since the 70's, everyone else has slowly plugging alone with research. The American nuclear companies haved partnered up with the Japanese. This time, the American companies have copied the Japanese designs and improved upon them. Westinghouse has their new AP1000 http://www.ap1000.westinghousenuclear.com/ and GE has their ESBWR http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/...4429g_esbwr.pdf . Both reactor have been simplified to greatly cut cost and using passive engineering to achieve a huge improvement in safety.

 

The Three Mile Island accident was caused as a result of regulators forcing ever increasing levels of complexity in the name of safety. For every reactor built, regulators required changes and additions. At Three Mile Island, they had a leak and 2 faulty valves. The system was so complex that the operators could not determine what the problem was.

 

The new system have much fewer valves and pipes and they don't require pumps to say cool. They also will use a fixed design. All the reactors will be the same and be very well understood.

 

I think the AP1000 will have a huge cost advantage over the Candu and Pebble-bed. The value of the Candu is that you don't have to import pressure vessels from Japan and it can be used to recycle used fuel. You can also set up Candu reactor in places like Iran. They can run it with out needing enriched fuel. You don't want Iran to get their hands on enriched nuclear fuel. Iran already has more natural uranium than they could every use. It is the enrichment that they need to make bombs with.

 

The value to pebble bed is that the can be built small and they are fail safe. The are designed to be self regulating and can not overheat. If you want to make hydrogen, then you have to go to something that runs hot like a pebble bed.

[battyr]

That is pretty wild, clean the atmosphere and make fuel at the same time, if they can make it work on a large scale.

 

Of course we have no spare "carbon-neutral power". No one seems to want nuclear power (despite many advances such as CANDU and pebble bed reactors) and only a small fraction of the Big Stimulus "pie" is going toward build solar or wind power.

 

If you like future nukes, look up Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors (LFTR). http://home.comcast.net/~robert.hargraves/...tml/AimHigh.pdf

 

Bill Gates is working on developing the Travelling Wave Reactor. It is very hard to get information about it. Sounds like something straight out of Star Trek.

[nelsonlu]

And as I said before, when gasoline was over $4.00/gallon, the cost equivalency for CNG was about $1.00/gallon less.

 

Then, if I am understanding you correctly, it's not as economically efficient as hybrids, as every hybrid on the market (except for the GM "mild hybrids") saves more than 25% gas. Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Noah Harbinger]

Green Freedom: Los Alamos National Labs solution to energy problem

Los Alamos National Laboratory has developed a low-risk, transformational concept, called Green Freedom™, for large-scale production of carbon-neutral, sulfur-free fuels and organic chemicals from air and water.

 

Currently, the principal market for the Green Freedom production concept is fuel for vehicles and aircraft.

 

At the heart of the technology is a new process for extracting carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and making it available for fuel production using a new form of electrochemical separation. By integrating this electrochemical process with existing technology, researchers have developed a new, practical approach to producing fuels and organic chemicals that permits continued use of existing industrial and transportation infrastructure. Fuel production is driven by carbon-neutral power.

 

So... All we have so far is a "concept" - not even a demonstration facility? Don't you think it's maybe a little soon to be hailing it as an alternative to the Wall Street bailout for salvaging our economy?

 

It certainly sounds promising, but I wouldn't go devoting an amount equal to our entire military budget to it just yet.

[jpd80]

If you like future nukes, look up Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors (LFTR). http://home.comcast.net/~robert.hargraves/...tml/AimHigh.pdf

 

Bill Gates is working on developing the Travelling Wave Reactor. It is very hard to get information about it. Sounds like something straight out of Star Trek.

This might be a start unless you already know about it:

 

TR10: Traveling-Wave Reactor

 

Wave of the future: Unlike today’s reactors, a traveling-wave reactor requires very little enriched uranium, reducing the risk of weapons proliferation. (Click here for a larger diagram, also on page 3). The reactor uses depleted-uranium fuel packed inside hundreds of hexagonal pillars (shown in black and green). In a “wave” that moves through the core at only a centimeter per year, this fuel is transformed (or bred) into plutonium, which then undergoes fission. The reaction requires a small amount of enriched uranium (not shown) to get started and could run for decades without refueling. The reactor uses liquid sodium as a coolant; core temperatures are extremely hot--about 550 ºC, versus the 330 ºC typical of conventional reactors.

 

[theoldwizard]

Then, if I am understanding you correctly, it's not as economically efficient as hybrids, as every hybrid on the market (except for the GM "mild hybrids") saves more than 25% gas. Or am I misunderstanding you?

From a fuel standpoint you are correct.

 

But building a CNG vehicle, even a dual fuel (gasoline/CNG) is much, much less expensive than a hybrid. And hybrids still run on gasoline refined from "evil" imported oil !

 

Plus CNG works well on larger vehicles (like trucks). I don't think your ever going to see a dump truck, cement mixer or even an F250/F350 hybrid, but all of these are good candidates for CNG.

[theoldwizard]

BTW, everyone. Forget nuclear. The President doesn't like it !!

 

I sure wish they would start building those solar power plants in the deserts of NV, NM and AZ. Of course, how do you get that power to the Midwest and East Coast ?

[Critic]

BTW, everyone. Forget nuclear. The President doesn't like it !!

 

I sure wish they would start building those solar power plants in the deserts of NV, NM and AZ. Of course, how do you get that power to the Midwest and East Coast ?

 

Electron Tanker trucks. or Just use the internet. Put buckets at the end of the internet to collect all the used electrons, and your killed 2 birds with one stone. Recycled used electrons and instant delivery.