Deanh Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 evrytime I see a beachball being bounced around at a baseball game for some reason I think of a Smart car in a multiple car accident.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 heh heh, or Porsche....or Audi.....or Benz.....hmmm?????? All german so far..... Under CARB's rules, I believe Porsche is exempt. Apparently the cost of compliance is too high for manufacturers of expensive cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Under CARB's rules, I believe Porsche is exempt. Apparently the cost of compliance is too high for manufacturers of expensive cars. why, because of lower production numbers?as for the other Germans.....oh my....what are the Nellie Gail Cougars going to drive to Pavillions to buy their Pedigree supply for Mr Biggles the Pomeranian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaZor Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Under CARB's rules, I believe Porsche is exempt. Apparently the cost of compliance is too high for manufacturers of expensive cars. Hmmm, not so sure about that - but even if true, it only buys them 3-4 years extra to comply and by that time the goal is even higher IIRC. Seem to remember the number 60,000 vehicle sales - which before was to Calif & 13 other states. I would assume that number would now be all 50 states. I think that is why Porsche was so intent on the VW deal to get included in their corporate fleet numbers. Personally I think that number should be much lower - say like 1,500 to 2,500 total vehicles - that way the real small car companies get some time to meet the regs - Porsche certainly has the means, the resources and the time to meet the regs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 little tid-bit I have mentioned previously but is now obviously in full bloom.....with eco and the like...sure seems as if ford is WAYYYYY ahead of the curve....these new rules will DEVASTATE quite a few manufacturers.....with a little luck this will reflect in increased sales numbers for the Blue Oval...me happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) wonder whom may actually leave the American market....some are REALLY going to suffer.... Edited May 19, 2009 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 screw this small car crap. I heard some bad news last weekend that some former neighbors of mine were involved in an accident in their 06 Civic. They were T-boned by a 98 Cadillac STS. None of them made it. Only one son that is away at college is left. The sad part is that they owned a 4 Runner too. I bet if they were in that car they would have made it. Bless them all. Great people. If the Cad was off the street, and they were hit by a small car... Maybe they would have had a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 trust me...when rules as ludicrous as this become mandated manufacturers will have no choice...and sticker prices will take a huge hike..... Obviously. Since Eco-boost is now almost a $5K option, when it has translated across all cars and in 90% of them, you can figure that alone has added in $1.5K to the price of a car. and consider about a 4% increase each year into a car. And the fact that Al has said he wants people to feel it's 'good' to pay $30K for an upscale fiesta, where will be the back lash? $80K F250' diesels? Don't scoff their almost $70K now. As long as things need to be built and repaired in the world, there will be large vehicles in the form of pickup trucks and vans for as far into the future any of us can see. F-series will outsell Fiesta in the U.S. for years, if not decades. Care to make a wager? Read the company wording carefully that Ford just put out on the Eco-Boost today. They counter the cost of EB by saying the potential savings of gas. So you have $4-5 / gallon. and you think urban workers will still but an F-series for commuting to work? Your Mustang will be $10K higher in 2016, I'm sure. The cheapest price rise will probably be about $7K by 2016. I think it's totally going to change the game and put a stop to the love-affair with auto's. I see it happening now. People are questioning the rationality of having to purchase expensive cars for status and transportation. Fuel at 5/gal. $45K mustangs, $80K diesel F-series, $35K Fiesta's.. Mortage meltdown wiped out equity loans for car purchases now, so it's back to regular financing. The world has changed, we just don't see it yet. Totally different beast when 2016 rolls around. Not a pretty site in my eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Obviously. Since Eco-boost is now almost a $5K option, when it has translated across all cars and in 90% of them, you can figure that alone has added in $1.5K to the price of a car. and consider about a 4% increase each year into a car. And the fact that Al has said he wants people to feel it's 'good' to pay $30K for an upscale fiesta, where will be the back lash? $80K F250' diesels? Don't scoff their almost $70K now. Read the company wording carefully that Ford just put out on the Eco-Boost today. They counter the cost of EB by saying the potential savings of gas. So you have $4-5 / gallon. and you think urban workers will still but an F-series for commuting to work? Your Mustang will be $10K higher in 2016, I'm sure. The cheapest price rise will probably be about $7K by 2016. I think it's totally going to change the game and put a stop to the love-affair with auto's. I see it happening now. People are questioning the rationality of having to purchase expensive cars for status and transportation. Fuel at 5/gal. $45K mustangs, $80K diesel F-series, $35K Fiesta's.. Mortage meltdown wiped out equity loans for car purchases now, so it's back to regular financing. The world has changed, we just don't see it yet. Totally different beast when 2016 rolls around. Not a pretty site in my eye. next up, 10 year financing......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 mileage rules are ridiculous. why dont they just let the market decide? Maybe we should get rid of all rules and let people drive how they want..... Pay what they want for taxes... on second thought...... :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I would assume that number would now be all 50 states. I think that is why Porsche was so intent on the VW deal to get included in their corporate fleet numbers. I doubt that the EPA will just put their letterhead on CARB's rules. CAFE presently makes no exceptions for Ferrari, Porsche, etc., and IMO, that's as it should be. The fines are only monetary, and those makes can certainly afford to pay them. BTW I think that's an excellent point about Porsche merging with VW: not only because of pending requirements in the US, but abroad as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 The fuel economy requirements for light trucks will be much lower than the 42 mpg requirement for cars. The MKT is classified as a light truck. If I recall, that milage only needs to increase to an average of somewhere around 27 MPG. So basically: If new CAFE kills the MKT, it'll also kill the F-150. Is the MPG requirements the combined or the highway number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I doubt that the EPA will just put their letterhead on CARB's rules. CAFE presently makes no exceptions for Ferrari, Porsche, etc., and IMO, that's as it should be. The fines are only monetary, and those makes can certainly afford to pay them. BTW I think that's an excellent point about Porsche merging with VW: not only because of pending requirements in the US, but abroad as well. I see this as a real barrier to the Chinese trying to enter the US market. You can copy all you want, but as for innovate, I've not seen them do that as of yet. I seriously doubt if any Chinese car will meet US pollution rules now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkapeGote Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Sup, I understand the need for better mileage. I get the need for low pollution. Both are good things. I am a car enthusiast. I love driving. I love amateur racing. I those are good things. In the future if I have to drive around in some piece of crap, imported from Europe or China I will just stop buying cars. Using Ford's lineup, here is my personal conclusion: Ka = Not even a car. Half a car with the wheels welded back on Fiesta = Almost a car. Unless you are above average in height or weight Focus = 8/10ths of a car. Still to small for someone of my height. Fusion = Here I fit, but just barely. We are talking minimal headroom Taurus = Not sure yet, but I have a SHO on order Crown Vic = Completely outdated, but I fit great. My point is, at my height smalls cars will never work. My 5 series Bim seems small for me when I get in and out especially. They do not make cars for people like me. Since I set very straight up, this makes even more of a problem. I would rather see more efficient engine design. Better use of available fuels. Small cars just do not work for me. If I bought a couple of Ka's i could probably use them for roller skates. Skape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Obama also praised Ford -- the only domestic company that hasn't sought government loans. "I just want to mention, I think I still have my Ford parked in Chicago. It's a Ford hybrid, it runs great, you guys should take a look," Obama said, quickly sensing the unease of the other nine automakers. "But there are also some outstanding hybrids -- and energy-independent cars represented up here, so I didn't want to just advertise for one." From the Detroit News article....love it!! http://detnews.com/article/20090519/AUTO01...irements+by++16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Is the MPG requirements the combined or the highway number? Take the current combined rating * 1.316 to get the approximate CAFE rating. Math: combined ratings fell c. 10% with the '08 adjustment, to get that back your multiplication factor is 1.111 (1/.9) the pre '08 number was revised downwards 15.4% in 1985. To get that back your multiplication factor is 1.185 (1/.844) combine the two factors: 1.111 * 1.185 = 1.316 : a * b * c = a * (b * c) And voila: to estimate the CAFE mileage, multiply the current combined mileage by 1.316. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94bronco Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I guess I will just have to buy something exempt ( Superduty) to get around this shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I guess I will just have to buy something exempt ( Superduty) to get around this shit. Betcha they won't be exempt for long... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) Lots of car nuts are mad, but I remember the 70's oil days, when supposedly there would "never again be performance cars" and the 80's would be all slow small cars. Hmm, then 1987 5.0 came along... Get over it, we cant keep sending $$ to unstable nations for oil, to feed 15 mpg hogs so we "feel great". Younger car fans embranced Electronic Fuel motors and turbos, so next generation will have to find a way to make more power for less gas. Or with other fuels. Edited May 20, 2009 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Take the current combined rating * 1.316 to get the approximate CAFE rating. Math: combined ratings fell c. 10% with the '08 adjustment, to get that back your multiplication factor is 1.111 (1/.9) the pre '08 number was revised downwards 15.4% in 1985. To get that back your multiplication factor is 1.185 (1/.844) combine the two factors: 1.111 * 1.185 = 1.316 : a * b * c = a * (b * c) And voila: to estimate the CAFE mileage, multiply the current combined mileage by 1.316. There is no way that the new Taurus will help with the new rules then. The Fusion (non- hyb) will hurt Ford too. The 3.5 will be about the same as the Taurus. Three or maybe two cars will be what Ford will have to depend on to reach the CAFE car numbers. How do you see it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang let back Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 what will happen to the mustang??? :redcard: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcibiades Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 You guys who think this is OK, just wait. When the socialists get in control, you never know who they will turn on next. Eventually it will be you. You can have freedom, or you can have Obama & Co. You aren't going to get to keep both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 what will happen to the mustang??? with a 400HP or so Ecoboost 3.5L V6, it will be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 There is no way that the new Taurus will help with the new rules then. The Fusion (non- hyb) will hurt Ford too. The 3.5 will be about the same as the Taurus. Three or maybe two cars will be what Ford will have to depend on to reach the CAFE car numbers. How do you see it? Corporate Average Fuel Economy - the name should give you a hint. It's the (harmonic) average of all sedans or all trucks as applicable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) The Fusion (non- hyb) will hurt Ford too. The Fusion S exceeds the 2015 standards already, as does the Focus and as will the Fiesta. Quite likely, the Mercury compact is being introduced as a CAFE offset. Also, bear in mind that none of Ford's mainline vehicles have mild hybrid functionality (e.g. start/stop assist & regen. braking), and that there's still a fair bit of 'low hanging fruit' (e.g. turbo 4s in midsizers). However, you might be looking at a real stretch to get to 42CAFE MPG by 2020. Of course there will be a different administration in place by 2016 at the latest. Edited May 20, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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