D32 Minivan back on?

[RichardJensen]

Transit != minivan replacement

 

But will be much better at hauling passengers than the E-Series. Minivan market = 100% fluff, as vans have always provided more meat.

[battyr]

Re: Galaxy based minivan

 

Might as well base the next F150 off the global Ranger, IMO.

If you want to compete against Chrysler, Toyota, Honda and everyone else, it would have to be based off the Flex to get the size. It would be too expensive and never make a profit. I would say to use the Galaxy and make it smaller, sportier and cheaper. The small market is much smaller, but with less competition. Ford could build a common minivan and sell it world wide. As a flexible platform, they would only need to sell 40,000 minivans per year in the US to make a profit. Chrysler sells about 10 times this number of minivan, but I don't know if they make a profit off them. Remember Ford should supply to this market, but does not want to lose high profit Flex sales in the process.

[battyr]

Transit != minivan replacement

 

But will be much better at hauling passengers than the E-Series. Minivan market = 100% fluff, as vans have always provided more meat.

 

Chrysler keeps making their minivans bigger. Maybe Ford can leap frog them with the Tansit and creat a whole new market. The size of a full size van, the fuel efficiency of a minivan! The Cadillac of Minivans.

[RichardJensen]

Yeah. And why not get rid of the F150 and just sell F250s?

 

If the market wanted a bigger minivan, they'd buy a van, period. And don't think your fullsize Transit is going to be pulling down 25mpg highway, even if they can get it to 18 or so city (about on a par with the Odysseys, etc.)

 

----

 

Smaller is probably the better idea, but even there, you're not, IMO, looking at an attractive market. You're looking at a market that competes on price.

 

Small minivans don't do much better on gas than fullsize minivans, they don't drive much better, they don't carry less of a stigma, etc., they're pretty much just sold to people who can't afford fullsize minivans.

Edited June 29, 2009 by RichardJensen

[rkisler]

Yeah. And why not get rid of the F150 and just sell F250s?

 

If the market wanted a bigger minivan, they'd buy a van, period. And don't think your fullsize Transit is going to be pulling down 25mpg highway, even if they can get it to 18 or so city (about on a par with the Odysseys, etc.)

 

----

 

Smaller is probably the better idea, but even there, you're not, IMO, looking at an attractive market. You're looking at a market that competes on price.

 

Small minivans don't do much better on gas than fullsize minivans, they don't drive much better, they don't carry less of a stigma, etc., they're pretty much just sold to people who can't afford fullsize minivans.

 

I'm in agreement.

 

The minivan has been defined by the Odyssey and Sienna, period. If you can't do better than them in any category, then forgetaboutit. All of those attributes were defined in the canceled W355 minivan. A couple of the "givens", like handling 4X8 sheets of plywood flat with the liftgate closed and having "pass-through" capability are not likely with the FoE skinnier architectures.

 

So, Ford can continue to "take a pass" at a true minivan, and go elsewhere.

 

Ford Flex for a stylish vehicle that has some minivan attributes, but falls drastically short of minivan space utilization due to front end styling that moves the front driver/passenger backward. (once you make this choice, you can never make up for it)

 

Add smaller people carriers with good space utilization, but compromised overall function.

 

Add passenger versions of Transit.

 

But as you are aware, none of these are true minivans, and those that want a "real" no-excuses minivan will go elsewhere. Although minivans have declined in popularity, there is still a core volume that is reasonably stable.

[battyr]

Yeah. And why not get rid of the F150 and just sell F250s?

 

If the market wanted a bigger minivan, they'd buy a van, period. And don't think your fullsize Transit is going to be pulling down 25mpg highway, even if they can get it to 18 or so city (about on a par with the Odysseys, etc.)

 

----

 

Smaller is probably the better idea, but even there, you're not, IMO, looking at an attractive market. You're looking at a market that competes on price.

 

Small minivans don't do much better on gas than fullsize minivans, they don't drive much better, they don't carry less of a stigma, etc., they're pretty much just sold to people who can't afford fullsize minivans.

 

Isn't that what they did when they brought out the 2009 F-150. It's bigger, and it can tow more, but it is still called an F-150.

[RichardJensen]

Drive an unladen F150 and F250 back to back and let me know if you notice a difference.

[battyr]

Drive an unladen F150 and F250 back to back and let me know if you notice a difference.

 

There is a difference between a Transit and an E-150 as well.

[RichardJensen]

There is a difference between a Transit and an E-150 as well.

And between the Transit & Odyssey. There are very very very few people who would ever consider cross shopping those two products

Maybe Ford can leap frog them with the Tansit and creat a whole new market. The size of a full size van, the fuel efficiency of a minivan! The Cadillac of Minivans.

[battyr]

And between the Transit & Odyssey. There are very very very few people who would ever consider cross shopping those two products

 

A whole new market. No competition.

[J-150]

A whole new market. No competition.

 

 

Mazda5

[SparcEE]

Mazda5

 

3 years with a Mazda5 and she still continues to impress...28-29MPG @ ~ 75MPH fully loaded with gear and mixed driving regularly returns 24-27 MPG. A bit odd looking in the rear, but functionality, good gas mileage, and Zoom Zoom driving characteristics over rule style. Never an issue losing it in the parking lot. Also didn't have any choice in this class of vehicle since there is nothing else like it exists on the American roads. Still continues to show up as a top pick for family haulers (2 weeks ago in Detroit Freepress) in print media.

 

I'd like to have something made in America by an American company (as I have blue blood personally and familywise), but will not buy a Chrysler or non-Ford (I know Mazda isn't, but when I bought it I got employee discount and was controlled by FoMoCo). I'm hoping that when I need my next vehicle that there will be some American vehicle (hopefully FoMoCo) that gets close to 30 MPG and has the same characteristics as my M5 . Sliding doors were never appreciated by me until we a had a child and needed full access to the rear doors. So while the Flex might be an option, its styling, lack of sliding doors and so-so gas mileage (sooner or later we will be back @ $4+ gas)leaves me waiting the for competition for my M5. Maybe Explorer with 4 cyl. EB will get me there...will give up sliding doors for a bit of towing cpability and AWD.

 

I'd love a S-MAX any day of the week...to bad more FoE show and no get here in the US.

 

SparcEE

[macattak1]

Hey, Armada, I remember when I saw the first pre-production wagon on the road near the Ypsilanti plant.

 

All white.

 

I thought "Look. Moby Dick!!"

 

Nevertheless, the wagon looks like it's in great shape, and if it works for you, that's all that matters.

 

I love the fold down tail gates on those and the Tahoes. Most now are the Expy and Explorer lift gates which I like for somethings, but hate the fact that you can not roll the rear window down.

 

My parents owned two Vista Cruisers and the replacement wagon to that. Great family, camping, winter cars. 180k+ on all of them. The newest one went to like 220k miles but the floor rusted out in the 2nd row...

 

Peace and Blessings

[RichardJensen]

A whole new market. No competition.

A market for something that's bigger than a minivan and rides like a truck?

 

Already being served..... hint: the name 'minivan' is your first clue

[ANTAUS]

I'll also add to the Mazda5 comment, my bestfriend is happy with hers and fits her needs perfectly fine. She's looking forward to a newer version with a possibly 2.5L and 6A is really all it needs, and some NVH tuning as well. She bought it because it could haul the most about of ass, for under $20K and again, handles well. She would also like to see a Ford version of this set up, and only bought it because she knew of Ford kinship and what the vehicle is based on was Ford...

Edited June 30, 2009 by ANTAUS

[Biker16]

A market for something that's bigger than a minivan and rides like a truck?

 

Already being served..... hint: the name 'minivan' is your first clue

 

the FWD transit could make people take another look at a real van. Economy should be close to the regular minivan, with a 3.5 6spd. lower load floor, completly flat, real payload, and decent towing, durability.

 

it is the inbetween. it allows ford to market the smaller galaxy,below and transit above. without the added investment of a US only minivan.

 

RJ have you ever thought the reason people don't consider the E-series is because it is too Trucky, and old. with a shit interior. the transit like the connect are products that inspire people to think differently about thier needs in a vehicle. most people understand what the Connect was made to do, people will find a niche for the FWD transit.

[RichardJensen]

the FWD transit could make people take another look at a real van.

And the Tundra was the pickup that was going to change it all....

 

--

 

Where's the stow-n-go seating?

 

Where's the fold-out table?

 

Where's the million and one cubbies, bins, cupholders, lights, power-points, headphone jacks, HVAC controls, monitors, stereo controls roll-down windows, sunroofs, sunshades, visors, belts, latches, conveniences, luxuries, amenities and expected extras that have turned the premium minivan into a purpose built vehicle dang near on a par with military troop transports when it comes to specs and expectations?

 

Go spend some serious time crawling around a top of the line done to the 9s Town & Country, Sienna, or Odyssey, and then tell me how a Transit--even one with a wonderful "Euro-spec" interior--competes with that.

 

--

 

Or better yet, just take Austin's word for it. Minivans are minivans and nothing else will suffice for those that need them.

Edited June 30, 2009 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

I mean seriously Biker, do you have any idea how many places cracker crumbs can end up in a minivan?

[blazerdude20]

I mean seriously Biker, do you have any idea how many places cracker crumbs can end up in a minivan?

 

as someone who cleans them, way to many places to count.

[armadamaster]

Yeah. And why not get rid of the F150 and just sell F250s?

 

I thought they had pretty much already done that:

 

 

Here's your Transit customers:

 

 

^^Which so far from what I have seen include all of.....FEDEX

 

I love the fold down tail gates on those and the Tahoes. Most now are the Expy and Explorer lift gates which I like for somethings, but hate the fact that you can not roll the rear window down.

 

My parents owned two Vista Cruisers and the replacement wagon to that. Great family, camping, winter cars. 180k+ on all of them. The newest one went to like 220k miles but the floor rusted out in the 2nd row...

 

Peace and Blessings

 

Sweet. I have never been much of a wagon person til I found this one for my parents about a year and a half ago and it grew on me quick. Looking forward to taking it to AL for vacation at the end of July.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Armada Master

[old_fairmont_wagon]

I'd love to see a mercury version of the MAzda 5 with the EB 1.6L as its motivation. I think that would hit all kinds of crazy right buttons for people. It would be sporty, fuel efficient, capable of seating 6 and generally work great for city families. I think it would be an Ideal mercury product.

 

As for the transit (NOT the transit connect, the real transit) replacing a true minivan for van duties, look at the height of the transit. Unless they have an option with a chopped roof, its going to be too tall for many parking garages. I believe that the specs for them that I was looking at had them a good bit taller than the Tahoe I drive for work, and its roof rubs against the clearance bumpers at two of the parking garages that I use. Granted, if by some quirk of fate my we have another kid, I'll be looking at bigger than minivan minivans. Either the 8 passenger Sienna, or, full size vans.

 

The reality of the situation is that US family sizes are declining. There are proportionately fewer and fewer families that need to move that many people around on a regular basis. Ford will undoubtedly offer a passenger version of the transit at some time in the future in the USDM, but, it will be aimed at the church, club, and livery crowd and not the regular retail consumer. I do encourage you all to look at what can be done to the sprinter from Chrysler/mercedes. You can configure the smallest size as a quasi minivan that seats 10ish and it will do a decent job for what you want it to do. Its not cheap, though, and its a bit short on regular minivan amenities. It does have gobs of space, though.

[Biker16]

I mean seriously Biker, do you have any idea how many places cracker crumbs can end up in a minivan?

I just spent 7 hours in a dodge caravan.

talking with my cousin who owns a Chevy astro. he was not a fan of the caravan. it was not tough enough, he did not want to buy a suburban, he wanted another astro, he tows a bit, he is less concerned with comfort more with durabilty and utility.

 

For families the caravan is nice, an empty nester with a minivan, uses it more for towing, fishing, moving the kids from college, needs more utility and less seating flexibilty.

 

this could be our transit buyer.

 

BTW the FWD transit sits 1 inch lower than the F150 4x4.

 

6ft 6 inches tall. the odessey is 5ft 8in

Edited June 30, 2009 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

So your 'Transit buyer' is an empty nester?

 

Honestly, do you see ANY likelihood of that happening? I mean you're basically describing the guys that buy midsize and compact pickup trucks.

 

Think: what kind of cars do you see at retirement villages? On the streets of 'established' neighborhoods (40+ years old, with little ownership turnover--e.g. empty nesters)? Down at Denny's on Friday mornings and Sundays at lunch? It's pickups with toppers and fullsize cars.

 

These people are not going to buy a gigantic (to them) van, in order to lug the extremely heavy seats (when are van seats NOT heavy?) around whenever they need to help one of their kids move and then not use the seats when they're not helping the kids move. Shoot--even there, have you ever been on campus at the beginning or end of a school year?

 

I'm telling you Biker (and it's not just me saying this either--look at OFW's posts and Austin's)---the Transit ain't gonna find a home in many private garages. You're trying to push a rope up hill.

 

---

 

And the Astro is dead. Not enough demand for it.

 

The kind of people who bought the Astro (usually used) for private use------those are the kind of people who will furnish a sort of secondary, (and mostly second-hand) market for the Transit.

[Biker16]

So your 'Transit buyer' is an empty nester?

 

Honestly, do you see ANY likelihood of that happening? I mean you're basically describing the guys that buy midsize and compact pickup trucks.

 

Think: what kind of cars do you see at retirement villages? On the streets of 'established' neighborhoods (40+ years old, with little ownership turnover--e.g. empty nesters)? Down at Denny's on Friday mornings and Sundays at lunch? It's pickups with toppers and fullsize cars.

 

These people are not going to buy a gigantic (to them) van, in order to lug the extremely heavy seats (when are van seats NOT heavy?) around whenever they need to help one of their kids move and then not use the seats when they're not helping the kids move. Shoot--even there, have you ever been on campus at the beginning or end of a school year?

 

I'm telling you Biker (and it's not just me saying this either--look at OFW's posts and Austin's)---the Transit ain't gonna find a home in many private garages. You're trying to push a rope up hill.

 

---

 

And the Astro is dead. Not enough demand for it.

 

The kind of people who bought the Astro (usually used) for private use------those are the kind of people who will furnish a sort of secondary, (and mostly second-hand) market for the Transit.

 

If I am correct you didn't think the transit had a place in US. nor did the mondeo, and the 500 was just what the US market needed. transit taxi etc your assuptions are too rigid and the fact that there is nothing in this segment today does not mean people will not by it. the transit is flexible that can be different things to different people. it is a low risk option for Ford. framing the FWD transit as alternative to a minvan, and the galaxy as the smaller alternative to the mainstream minivans. could be a better option than diving into this mature segment with an all new product.

 

it is an option, I'd like to see a FWD with a 3.5 duratec or 2.5 EB with a 6spd Atx. Economy should be pretty decent for a 9 passenger van 18/23.

[RichardJensen]

If I am correct you didn't think the transit had a place in US. nor did the mondeo, and the 500 was just what the US market needed. transit taxi etc your assuptions are too rigid and the fact that there is nothing in this segment today does not mean people will not by it. the transit is flexible that can be different things to different people. it is a low risk option for Ford. framing the FWD transit as alternative to a minvan, and the galaxy as the smaller alternative to the mainstream minivans. could be a better option than diving into this mature segment with an all new product.

 

it is an option, I'd like to see a FWD with a 3.5 duratec or 2.5 EB with a 6spd Atx. Economy should be pretty decent for a 9 passenger van 18/23.

So now we're back to the 'poorly remembered things that I thought you once said.'

 

That would be meaningful if I claimed to be infallible, but since I haven't, it's not even remotely relevant....

 

To address your main point: "framing the FWD transit as alternative to a minvan, and the galaxy as the smaller alternative to the mainstream minivans. could be a better option than diving into this mature segment with an all new product"

 

Yes. Pretending that the Transit would appeal to people who might otherwise buy a minivan is definitely cheaper than developing a minivan--and if the effort extends no farther than putting 'happy family' pictures in the Transit brochures, I agree with you--it's cheap and there's no significant downside risk.

 

But when you start talking about importing the Galaxy (or even worse, building it here) in order to find a gap in one of the most heavily researched segments in the market........

 

Now you're talking about throwing good money after bad. The small minivan market exists for people that can't afford big minivans. Buying a Caravan instead of a Grand Caravan......... ask anyone who owns a Caravan if they passed up on a Grand Caravan because it was 'just too big'.... And the small minivans are priced and equipped accordingly.

 

To that, you have the reality that this segment is less than half the size it was at the turn of the century--and that it was in decline before the overall market took a dump.

 

--------

 

Now to your poor memory:

 

Transit

I have said, consistently, that the Transit is a superior passenger carrier--and a significantly superior one at that. The floor-ceiling clearance available in the Transit also makes it more suitable for many (but not necessarily all) trades.

 

However, it's shortcomings are as follows:

1) Less capability at the high end

2) No major advantages for a dramatically different form factor in the midrange.

 

---

 

Mondeo

I said importing the Mondeo was stupid--and that importing any EU-spec vehicle was iffy at best.

 

I consider the current Mondeo to be a nice, if bland design, and that the plan to adapt EU designs for the US is fraught with danger.

 

Why the Five Hundred was just chock-a-block full of EU design cues--as was the Fusion (before it got the 427 grille)

 

Which leads to...

Five Hundred

 

I was wrong about the Five Hundred. I didn't think that it's bland EU-derived styling would affect sales. But the success of the Fusion, which sported a decidedly non-EU-spec face instead of the CDW-220 Mondeo-cloned face it was prototyped with convinced me otherwise.

 

The Fusion originally had a front end similar to the Five Hundred and the previous Mondeo. The 2005 Focus got a C1 Focus inspired front end and it landed with a similar thud in the market--but the shiny non-EU-derived '08 Focus did exceptionally well.

 

Experience has taught me the value of startling, distinctive styling--and that is why I can't conscience subordinating Ford's NA designs to FoE designers.