PREMiERdrum Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Well, I've heard about this from several different sources and places, and I'm wondering what you all have heard. Is the scrubbed minivan project back on? From what I've heard it was shitcanned when the Flex was estimated to sell at 100k units, but is currently back on. I've been told that the dealers have been asking for a true minivan, as the Flex is tough to sell to most minivan customers. Would a D32 based van be to big? Maybe on the coming CD platform for the next gen Fusion/Modeo? What have you heard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I don't think the Flex was ever estimated to sell at 100k. Jim Farley once expressed optimism that they could hit that number, but it was programmed around 70k/year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 As crazy as that number may sound, I do believe that someone did say that they were estimating 100K sales. I'm sure that was probably retracted. I'm thinking 30K is more realistic. I'm not sure if reinventing CD to support the size of a structure a van would require would be worth it. Take a Flex, restyle it a bit, and increase it's height and I think it might work. But not at 100K units, I think maybe 50K would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
focus05 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 The official target was 75k. Had been the entire run-up to the launch. Farley came in and said at a press conference in NY, I believe, that he could see the vehicle hitting 100k in the right market. Well, the Flex launched in the middle of the worst market - high gas prices and then collapse of the financial industry. 75k in a 15-16M market is about equal to 50k in a 10-11M market. The Flex will probably move 40-45k, so they aren't far off their mark. Just bad timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I'd support this project, even though (at this point in my life), I wouldn't buy one. I think it could do well, and given Ford's recent vehicles, it'll be a great quality, competitive offering. I see it being a good alternative to the Chryco offerings for those that wanna buy American, need a minivan, and don't wanna support GM or Chryco right now. If the project is back on, I'm interested to see what innovative storage/configuration compartments/ideas Ford has up their sleeve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I do believe that someone did say that they were estimating 100K sales. I'm sure that was probably retracted. I'm thinking 30K is more realistic. When was the last time I seriously botched a current Ford fact on this website Antaus? The fact is Farley said that they could sell 'up to 100k' Flexes (specifically he was asked if 100k was 'reasonable' and he said 'absolutely' at a press event in Las Vegas) The estimate was never 100k-100k, nor was it 100k+ The estimate you'll see cited most often is 75k-100k, and the lower bound (75k) is still above the planning assumption and the break even point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosetang Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I hope this doesn't happen. I have a burning hatred of minivans and the day Ford stopped making them was a very happy one for me. MAYBE something along the lines of the European people-movers could straddle the divide, but IMO they should focus on refining the segments they are currently in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I hope this doesn't happen. I have a burning hatred of minivans and the day Ford stopped making them was a very happy one for me. MAYBE something along the lines of the European people-movers could straddle the divide, but IMO they should focus on refining the segments they are currently in. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it couldn't do relatively well. Pd (PREMiERdrum) and I were discussing this topic elsewhere, and were thinking this D32/4 minivan could eventually be merged with the Galaxy. He proposed using the Galaxy name and had a neat idea for an ad, but I'll let him tell you if he wants to. We also discussed how this could further spread out development costs for the D32/4 platform. Think: for now you'd have Taurus, MKS, Explorer, Flex, MKT, and this minivan all on D32/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) We just bought two 2009 Dodge Caravans at my job due to a lack of another domestic minivan option on the market. Before this we bought Suburbans but GM wouldn't budge off of $40k for a new one so the boss decided to get the two Caravans for $31k. My only gripes with them besides being unibody and FWD, is the seats are about as comfortable as a concrete bench, and they ride harsher than the last generation rental Caravan I drove a few years back, now they ride more truckish. If they'd remedy the hard seats and hard ride, they'd have the best minivan on the market. Edited June 23, 2009 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplorerDude Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) If they reintroduce a minivan they need to name it the Windstar. I can't even begin to tell you how many people love or loved their Windstar and were upset that it turned into the Freestar and then got discontinued. Ford needs to build a high quality, feature packed minivan to compete against the Odysesy and the Sienna. I'm sure it would be stylish based on all of Ford's recent great designs. But you need that brand recognition once again. Name it the Windstar. Period. Edited June 23, 2009 by ExplorerDude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Personally, I'd rather they just incorporate the "global" scheme and bring over the galaxy. Slap a Merc name on it and be done. I don't see the mini-van market taking off any time soon. The Flex can handle the "large" area, Galaxy a bit smaller with actual sliding doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGolden Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 If there were sliding doors on the flex i would buy it. It suffers a little in behind the third seat room compared to my van but the sliding doors are the killer for me. Throw some sliders (powered of course) at the flex and it would be a "cool" minivan in my opinion. I love everything about the Mazda5 except the size. It looks great for a micro-van. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 If there were sliding doors on the flex i would buy it. It suffers a little in behind the third seat room compared to my van but the sliding doors are the killer for me. Throw some sliders (powered of course) at the flex and it would be a "cool" minivan in my opinion. I love everything about the Mazda5 except the size. It looks great for a micro-van. I agree, powered sliders on the Flex (at least as an option) would of been great, especially if they looked like suicide doors when closed. A D32 based minivan would be a great idea, I hope they do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 We just bought two 2009 Dodge Caravans at my job due to a lack of another domestic minivan option on the market. Before this we bought Suburbans but GM wouldn't budge off of $40k for a new one so the boss decided to get the two Caravans for $31k. My only gripes with them besides being unibody and FWD, is the seats are about as comfortable as a concrete bench, and they ride harsher than the last generation rental Caravan I drove a few years back, now they ride more truckish. If they'd remedy the hard seats and hard ride, they'd have the best minivan on the market. Why on earth would you possibly care that a MINIVAN was unit body and FWD? Planning to borrow them for some autocross on weekends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Why on earth would you possibly care that a MINIVAN was unit body and FWD? Planning to borrow them for some autocross on weekends? or towing a 5th wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 If there were sliding doors on the flex i would buy it. It suffers a little in behind the third seat room compared to my van but the sliding doors are the killer for me. Throw some sliders (powered of course) at the flex and it would be a "cool" minivan in my opinion. Nothing SCREAMS minivan more than sliding doors ! The designers swore there would never by sliding doors on the Flex ! Of the flip side is folks like you and some of my friends. They would buy a Flex in a heart beat if it had sliders. IMHO, Ford trying to do another "traditional" minivan is a bad idea, a huge waste of money and certainly not a "global" move ! The small wheel base Transit (the passenger version is called a Tourneo in EU) is a bit bigger than a traditional minivan but a lot smaller than an E150 Club Wagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonlu Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 We just bought two 2009 Dodge Caravans at my job due to a lack of another domestic minivan option on the market. Before this we bought Suburbans but GM wouldn't budge off of $40k for a new one so the boss decided to get the two Caravans for $31k. My only gripes with them besides being unibody and FWD, is the seats are about as comfortable as a concrete bench, and they ride harsher than the last generation rental Caravan I drove a few years back, now they ride more truckish. If they'd remedy the hard seats and hard ride, they'd have the best minivan on the market. Other than the price (and obviously, Ford can't sell two of them at $31K, even with fleet pricing), is there something that a minivan can do that a Flex cannot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Most minvan owners do not care that they are 'uncool' and dont 'look sexy'. Too bad if one hates them, then dont buy one and deprive others. And if you have kids, sliding doors are a wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 There is very little profit in minivans. Ford has to be very carefull to 1. keep the cost down. 2. not steal sales away from higher markup vehicles like the Flex. I see little value in copying the Caravan. It was a mistake not to copy the Caravan at one time, but today most minivans in the US copy the Carivan. Rather than a raised flat floor like the Caravan, a lower floor for the first and second row like used in the Flex and Nissan Quest would have some advantages. IMO, to keep the cost and weight down and to distinguish it from the Flex and Explorer, the D32 can not be used. The alternatives are: 1. Develop a lighter, cheaper version of the D32. Call it a D33. 2. Use the next generation Galaxy. 3. Use an extended body of the Transit Connect attached to a EUCD (Galaxy) front end. 4. I see the Tranit Connect as the same as the original Caravan. It just need engine upgrades, features added and styling changes. It could be built cheaper, but tougher than the Caravan. Good for a young familly that can not afford a Caravan, Toyota or a Flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itguy09 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Why on earth would you possibly care that a MINIVAN was unit body and FWD? Planning to borrow them for some autocross on weekends? Lots of weight not over the drive wheels is not good for traction. Load up a FWD van, go up a hill and it can get dicey. Load up a RWD van and you just go up the same hill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Is the familly minivan market big enough for Ford to sell both the Galaxy van and Transit Connect van to consumers? Remember they will also sell CUV like the Flex, Explorer and 7 passenger C-max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds91776 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 There are so many possibilities of what this rumor could mean. Let's be clear, the S/CUV market has splintered into an amazing number of segments and subsegments, and some, like GM, don't really play by the rules. The Equinox is neither a small CUV nor a true midsize while the Traverse, etc are not true midsizes (like Pilot and Highlander) and is a fullsize CUV. Ford and GM are the only competitors in the full size CUV market (Lambdas and Flex) which compete with Minivans, some buyers of 3-row midsizers, and refuges from full size SUVs. The upcoming Explorer will give Ford a midsize 3 row CUV to finnally compete with Pilot and Highlander properly. Now, back on topic. The simplest of plans to raise the roof height an inch or two, add sliders, and have full stow-away seats on the next-gen Flex. Keeping the basic funky styling could remove a lot of the stigma of the minivan market, while actually having a minivan in the lineup. So, in theory, Ford could have their cake and eat it too by making the Flex both a minivan and a fullsize CUV, at least in people's minds. The most complicated option is to have both the Flex and Flex/Taurus/Explorer based Minivan that is unique in styling and interior. While in a perfect world I would prefer this, I think it would spread Ford's sales over too many models in the 3-row market (Explorer, Flex, Minivan, Expedition). The middle option is to keep Flex as is, and bring over the next-gen Galaxy (with I4 ecoboost engines) over to NA. It would sliders and be a bit bigger. And they should sell it as a mercury. Those are the options as far as I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Just sell the Galaxy here but under a different name (that name belongs with a RWD sedan with -ie). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 Well I'm glad to see this topic took off after I went to sleep last night! My thoughts are all over the map on this, but like I said, I've heard the rumor from several different, completely unrelated sources. I guess my first thought was that a D32 based van would have a much better chance of being profitable by sharing platform and powertrains with the Flex/Explorer. You could essentially think of it as a re-bodied Flex with sliders. I keep picturing the 2010 taurus design language applied to a minivan and I think it would be stunning. The other option would be making the next generation Galaxy US compliant. I know that it is a bit smaller than most products here (closer in size to the old Mazda MPV I think), but you could always try to upsell someone into a Flex if the new van is too small for them. Either way I do think that I'd like to see the Galaxy name used. It just seems to have more appeal (sounds better?) than the _____star naming scheme Anymore, when I see people in a new Odyssey or Sienna, it's a young 30something family who went out and bought a loaded up minivan. Conventional wisdom (at least to me) led me to believe that the current crop of late 20, early 30somethings would opt for a CUV over a minivan because of the stigma. It seems thought that they aren't shying away at all. I'd say around here the average Odyssey driver is 10 to 15 years younger than the average Acadia/Traverse driver I see. So why do I have this newfound interest in Minivans? Well, we found out 2 weeks ago that after 5 years of trying and lots of treatments, we are expecting! One goal is to get a carseat-friendly vehicle to take the place of the Mustang as mt wife's daily driver (keeping the Mustang for weekend only duty). I've been looking at used Freestars/Montrey's, and I've been pretty impressed with the product (and they can be had for CHEAP!). I'm also looking at Freestyles / TaurusXs, but the sliders would be a big plus for us. As RMC mentioned I have an ad in mind for the Galaxy, so stick with me. Ad would open with old footage of Aerostar, Windstar, and Freestar, with the track "At Ford, we've always brought you the best way to transport your family. The durable Aerostar, the sleek Windstar, and the top-safety rated Freestar. And now, we're proud to introduce the next generation of family transportation. It's way more than a star... it's a whole Galaxy" Ending with an overhead shot of a family inside the galaxy (seen though the glass roof), then zoom out through the roof, continuing to pull away until we see the whole planet against a starry sky. It's just a rough idea at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 i was surprised to see this thread. I really hadn't realized that the Flex wasn't satisfying the minivan market. I thought that was the whole idea, give minivan customers something different that still fulfilled the needs in that segment, but I guess that didn't work out. If I had a big family and liked to go on trips with lots of luggage, I would definitely choose a Flex over a minivan, but I guess some people "need" the sliding doors (??). Anyway, I think Ford's got a decent slice of that market segment covered with the Flex, and I would hope they focus on other products for now. Fiesta, Focus, Ranger, Explorer all need the attention the new Fusion and Taurus have had. Develop a hybrid Flex, that'll keep up the buzz for that vehicle and get people to actually thing about the Flex as a minivan alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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