silvrsvt Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I can actually get more of my stuff inside a taller (on inside) Explorer than the Flex....even though the Flex is longer with longer cargo area. Strange, I did some looking around and the Flex and Explorer are roughly the same size when come to the Cargo area... 09 Explorer http://www.automotive.com/2009/12/ford/exp...s/interior.html Flex (with nice graphics to show how they measured) http://www.cargodogs.com/2008/09/ford-flex-2009.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Cool. I'm not a big fan of riding on roads because I swear there is always a diesel truck that points its exhaust in my face whenever I bike on the road. Plus NJ drivers are complete morons and biking on the road is just another way of expediting organ donation. Yeah, if you gotta lock your bikes inside, I wouldn't get a Flex either. Central Florida, where I live, has several hundred miles of paved, 14' wide, trails going all over the place. I take trips to other places in the country that has the same, or rural roads. The Tour of the Rockes was just completed. My point is...as nice as the Flex is, and it's a very nice well made vehicle, it just doesn't take the place of the mini van for many. I don't know if Ford can make the business case for a real mini van to compete with. I can get by with an Explorer for my needs. I'm not knocking the Flex as a vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 There are many thousands like me as evidenced by the remarks above. Yes, many thousands. Now how many of those many thousands will pick Ford's minivan over the established Sienna, Odyssey, Quest, Sedona, Caravan, and Town & Country? It's just not as large a market as it used to be. Witness Hyundai already cancelling the Entourage and I predict the rather quick demise of VW's recent entry also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevea26 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 How many depends on the final Van. Its no big secret. Build a great Van at a good price and they will sell. Do the same thing Honda and Toyota did when they 1st started selling a good Van. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveTaurus Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Now how many of those many thousands will pick Ford's minivan over the established Sienna, Odyssey, Quest, Sedona, Caravan, and Town & Country? It's just not as large a market as it used to be. Forget about Sedona and Quest; only Odyssey, Sienna and Caravan/TC rule! Most "new" mom and dad I knew, thought they need a minivan! I too, wanted sliding doors; there was a chance during the launch of Freestar to design better, but it was just too poor, especially to me the passengers seats Agree! It will be difficult to make people pick a Ford minivan over those existing! I end up with the Freestyle; like it; but my people always have difficult flip the seats to access the 3rd row; the swing doors added to the inconvenience. And the folding seats still take up more space in compare to a typical van, some items like refrigerators and couch couldn't fit in the cargo space. Edited June 23, 2009 by LoveTaurus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Forget about Sedona and Quest; only Odyssey, Sienna and Caravan/TC rule! And you basically summed up what most shoppers would say. Just insert "that new Ford minivan" in between Sedona and Quest. It would be nice to see a new Ford minivan I suppose...eventually. Personally, I don't see the Flex lasting very long on the market, even if its sales do continue to pick up momentum as they have been. Why? Well, where do you go with the design from here? Make it even boxier? I see it getting a refresh and maybe one more full generation before it goes away anyway just because it will have run its course as a design exercise. At that point, there may be more room in the lineup for something like a minivan again. Or perhaps the entire industry will have moved on to the "next big thing" by then. Really hard to guage where the market is going right now, especially in terms of larger vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 bicycles, strollers, high chairs, camping gear, nothing beats a mini van with their multiple seat configerations and/or storage space, stow and go, fold into floor, etc. Lots of people like to haul stuff on trips where they want it to stay inside out of the elements and thieves. I have been on many trips in my son's Odyessy, with a lot of stuff inside, and the Flex doesn't come close to doing the same thing. I can't agree. The Flex does all of that quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Lots of weight not over the drive wheels is not good for traction. Load up a FWD van, go up a hill and it can get dicey. Load up a RWD van and you just go up the same hill. Since there's so many RWD minivans (which is the type of vehicle being discussed). Yes, many thousands. Now how many of those many thousands will pick Ford's minivan over the established Sienna, Odyssey, Quest, Sedona, Caravan, and Town & Country? It's just not as large a market as it used to be. Witness Hyundai already cancelling the Entourage and I predict the rather quick demise of VW's recent entry also. Actually, I think the VW Routan is already dead, or at least on it's way to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) Why on earth would you possibly care that a MINIVAN was unit body and FWD? Planning to borrow them for some autocross on weekends? Wander over to the Astro/Safari van forum and ask that question. Seriously, it's so you can actually tow something other than just the trailer hitch for looks, and besides, FWD is da devil. If Ford did offer another minivan, I'd say it's a done deal that it would be D3 based, since they are hellbent on getting anybody to buy a D3, they'll slap under anything and everything to that end. The Freestar didn't work because it was a cheap decontented rebadged Windstar. It looked cheap and reeked of decontent, and customers picked up on it. The WIndstar was a much more attractive product. Speaking of something with a third row, check out what I just acquired this week: Got it for my parents a couple years back and they've enjoyed it but no longer need a third vehicle so I snapped it up. That pic is a couple of years old, now it sports OEM wire hubcaps and a sweet tint job. Oh and... <Zips up flame suit> ...I'm ready. Edited June 24, 2009 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Wander over to the Astro/Safari van forum and ask that question. Seriously, it's so you can actually tow something other than just the trailer hitch for looks, and besides, FWD is da devil. If Ford did offer another minivan, I'd say it's a done deal that it would be D3 based, since they are hellbent on getting anybody to buy a D3, they'll slap under anything and everything to that end. The Freestar didn't work because it was a cheap decontented rebadged Windstar. It looked cheap and reeked of decontent, and customers picked up on it. The WIndstar was a much more attractive product. Speaking of something with a third row, check out what I just acquired this week: Got it for my parents a couple years back and they've enjoyed it but no longer need a third vehicle so I snapped it up. That pic is a couple of years old, now it sports OEM wire hubcaps and a sweet tint job. Oh and... <Zips up flame suit> ...I'm ready. Hey, Armada, I remember when I saw the first pre-production wagon on the road near the Ypsilanti plant. All white. I thought "Look. Moby Dick!!" Nevertheless, the wagon looks like it's in great shape, and if it works for you, that's all that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 As a father of 4, all under 8, and an owner of two minivans, I can safely say that while the flex looks very attractive, it wouldn't work for us. Here are the reasons why... 1) The area behind the third row seat, which we would use almost all the time, is not big enough. You put a double stroller and a large diaper bag back there and there's no space left for almost anything else. 2)The lack of sliding doors. We have a difficult enough time getting our kids to control their enthusiasm on a regular basis. Get them excited about getting in or out of the vehicle and those swing open rear doors would be embedded in the next closest vehicle in an instant. 3) Loading up the back seats in a tight, crowded parking lot. At malls, parking garages, etc, spaces are small. With a swing open door, you don't get much of an opening and what you do get is hindered by the arm rest on those doors. Not so on either of our minivans. 4) Access to the third row. While the flex is commendably better than most vehicles in this department, our sienna with the sliding center seats and big gap in between them and the Caravan with its very easy one bar tumble forward feature that the kids know how to use are simply very efficient and loading and unloading the brood. 5) Infant carriers. Yes, you tend to leave the big car seats inside the vehicle once installed, but, for the first 6-9 months of your child's life, you'll have them in an infant carrier a lot. They are big and bulky and a PITA to get into most vehicles that don't have sliding doors. I think that there is definitely room for Ford, the one that has good credibility with much of the US for not taking governmnet money and for making major improvements in overall quality, the one that now has loads of safety technology that they got from Volvo, to make a class leading minivan. Start with the Flex, its not a bad vehicle. Optimize it for fuel economy and safety with great aerodynamics and an EcoBoost engine. Make it a touch longer than the crrent flex is. Take a good, hard look at what the Sienna, odyssey and GC/T&C do best and find a way to do it ALL better. Hopefully, they can find a way to reuse much of the FLEx and produce it on the same line to save costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 We also have a Taurus X and LOVE it. It does 99.9% of what we need. However on paper my wife and I our 2 year old and my in-laws trip to Disney from Pa should work with the room and flexibility of the T-X. However we and (our/my wife's and mother in laws crap) is just not working in the T-X. ah, the same arguments people made about pickups 2-3 years ago. Drive your daily driver and that one trip per year you haul something out of the norm, rent the appropriate vehicle. Why would you buy a bus to be a daily driver for a once a year road trip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 While I'm sure that lots of people love their minivans and there is a market out there for them, in all seriousness, has ANY minivan ever come close to selling 400K units a year like the Explorer did in the past? The Minivan market is much smaller and shrinking due to CUV's and people even moving back to cars for their needs. I'd venture to say that for every person who loves a Minivan, there are at least 2-3 of them that wouldn't be caught dead in them because of the Stigma...much like what happened with Station Wagons. Like its been stated before, does Ford really need to go after a shrinking market thats dominated by other players and doesn't produce that much in the way of profit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Wander over to the Astro/Safari van forum and ask that question. How many years ago were those cancelled? There was no longer a market for them. Sounds familiar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds91776 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I still think this issue has four options. 1. Build no Minivan. Keep the Flex as its Large CUV/Minivan competitor. Of course, Ford/Mercury will have the Mini-Minivan that is the C-MAX, but it will compete with the Rondo, 5, Journey, etc, not real Minivans. 2. Alter the Flex. For the 2nd gen Flex (2014?) the car could be stretched horzontally and (more importantly) vertically a bit. Add rear sliders and a lower, more flat floor with the seats down, and voila, converted Flex into a minivan. However, Ford could keep the Flex funky looking (though not necessarily boxy...though I do think it should keep the side grooves) and it could break the minivan stigma while still being a minivan. The Nissan Quest's mistake was that though,different looking, it wasnt different looking enough, and was pretty ugly overall (though I do like the beltline uptick). Ford can do it better. 3. Bring over the next gen Galaxy. For the next-gen Galaxy, there are two options. One, is to build a Short Wheelbase version for Europe and a Long Wheelbase version for North America, sharing front sheetmetal and interiors and have Europe's top powertrain be the NA standard (probably the EcoBoost I4 used in the 2011 Explorer). The other option is just to bring over the next-gen Galaxy as is, but just accept that it would be smaller than other NA minivans, but just market it as nimbler and more fuel effiecent. Of course, the next-gen Galaxy would have to have sliders to be worth it. If Ford wanted to, the Galaxy, if it came over, should be named Windstar if it is badged a Ford....or Monterey (good name I think) if it is a Mercury. 4. The fourth option is of course to just use D3/4 bits to make a NA only fullsize Minivan. IT could share wheelbase, powertrains, and even dashboards with the Flex...saving huge amounts of developement dollars. This is the least likely scenario in my book, but I could be wrong. If this happens, Ford must ensure that it is a no-compromise design, the best minivan on the market, if it is to really come back. And use the Windstar name too. It had a decent reputation and there is no need to abandon it. In fact, I am thinking about what it could look like and I may submit some drawings in the future...we shall see. I could also see Ford giving their minivan to Mercury instead, to not crowd the Explorer and Flex on the dealership floor. These are the only options, really, and I could see Ford doing any one of them...I would love to see Ford present a concept or at least have a public focus group, to test the waters. It will be interesting to see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) 3. Bring over the next gen Galaxy. For the next-gen Galaxy, there are two options. One, is to build a Short Wheelbase version for Europe and a Long Wheelbase version for North America, sharing front sheetmetal and interiors and have Europe's top powertrain be the NA standard (probably the EcoBoost I4 used in the 2011 Explorer). The other option is just to bring over the next-gen Galaxy as is, but just accept that it would be smaller than other NA minivans, but just market it as nimbler and more fuel effiecent. Of course, the next-gen Galaxy would have to have sliders to be worth it. If Ford wanted to, the Galaxy, if it came over, should be named Windstar if it is badged a Ford....or Monterey (good name I think) if it is a Mercury. I have read elsewhere that one of the next gen Euro/global MPV's is going to have a 5 seat and 7 seat version, with the larger version presumably targeted more at NA. If any of that is correct, it might support your thoughts stated here. ...and please don't recycle the Windstar name! Edited June 24, 2009 by Harley Lover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Can say 'stigma' all day, but used minvans are sought after by dealers for real familes. Many Latino families drive them, since they don't care what white Starbuck's yuppies think. Same with working families of any race. The 'eww yuck' type of person should stuff it and get over themselves and quit trashing people's vehicle choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 There's also the question of institutional knowledge. Ford would be, basically, starting from scratch on a very specialized--a very very specialized--vehicle. It took Toyota well over a decade to figure the formula out, and even so they caught up with Chrysler not because Chrysler botched the minivan formula, but because they couldn't isolate their minivans from their larger issues. Honda was a quicker study than Toyota, but even at that, they put a lot of effort into the Odyssey before it started paying off for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) Ford could borrow the Mazda MPV from Japan... Edited June 24, 2009 by ausrutherford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Can say 'stigma' all day, but used minvans are sought after by dealers for real familes. And a used vehcile makes Ford money somehow? Ever think that the reason that Latino population is buying them is they have no resale value and half the time they pull the airbags out of them to sell for extra $$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Ford could borrow the Mazda MPV from Japan... I thought the Edge was already based on the MPV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I thought the Edge was already based on the MPV? Its based on the Mazda 6 platform but its not a crossover, its a minivan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Can say 'stigma' all day, but used minvans are sought after by dealers for real familes. Many Latino families drive them, since they don't care what white Starbuck's yuppies think. Same with working families of any race. The 'eww yuck' type of person should stuff it and get over themselves and quit trashing people's vehicle choices. Minivans are probably THE most functional vehicle bar none...just most cannot handle the image issue...that is barring your "Latino" comment...then again one needs a van for the 5 to 6 kids..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) What about a transit connect (tourneo connect) upgraded for North American consumers - complete interior redo and ecoboost 4cyl? I have no idea how this compares in size to the Caravan/Odyssey/Sienna. Ford UK site says it is available with a 3rd row and seat 8. TourneoConnect Edited June 24, 2009 by jpvbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 What about a transit connect (tourneo connect) upgraded for North American consumers - complete interior redo and ecoboost 4cyl? I have no idea how this compares in size to the Caravan/Odyssey/Sienna. Ford UK site says it is available with a 3rd row and seat 8. TourneoConnect I wouldn't want to take it to the opera, for that you want a Flex. But if your a couple with 6 kids and want something cheap and reliable, I can't think of anything better. Or if your a student with 4 mountain bikes, even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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