NickF1011 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I would say the CTS is definitely core to Cadillac. It's been the centerpiece of the "Art and Science" design language. CTS, yes. CTS-V, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Would "flagship" be a better term? Which vehicles would you designate as "core" to Lincoln and Cadillac? Core? CTS (Again, not CTS-V), DTS, Escalade for Cadillac. MKZ, MKS, MKX, and maybe Navigator for Lincoln. I don't expect to see the MKT ever eclipse 1000 sales per month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveTaurus Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Just edged out from the back of my mind, MKT may become a favorite limousine choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 CTS, yes. CTS-V, no. Bah, you're talking semantics now. The guy just chose the top of line model for both the MKT and CTS for his article but when he was talking core to the brand, I believe he meant the models in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Bah, you're talking semantics now. The guy just chose the top of line model for both the MKT and CTS for his article but when he was talking core to the brand, I believe he meant the models in general. Exactly. Which vehicle epitomizes the brand. DTS is a dead man walking (good riddance) and Escalade is on life support like the Navigator. The CTS may be the volume vehicle but the CTS-V is the flagship. The MKT is definitely the most luxurious Lincoln right now. We're not talking about sales volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 We're not talking about sales volumes. When you are talking about "core" vehicles, I would argue you are talking about sales volumes. Was the Ford GT a "core" vehicle for Ford? Of course not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 When you are talking about "core" vehicles, I would argue you are talking about sales volumes. Was the Ford GT a "core" vehicle for Ford? Of course not. It was never intended to be. It was the ubiquitous "halo" vehicle. When I think of "core" to a brand, it's that instant connection to the brand that is made when the model is mentioned. For Ford, it's the Mustang (at one time, the Taurus). For Chevy, the Corvette. For Cadillac, it'd have to be the CTS (or the Escalade). I would argue in favor of the CTS since, like I said earlier, it's the centerpiece of the Cadillac design language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 When you are talking about "core" vehicles, I would argue you are talking about sales volumes. Was the Ford GT a "core" vehicle for Ford? Of course not. It would be the vehicle that best exemplifies the brand's image with its customers, not necessarily its best selling model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 It would be the vehicle that best exemplifies the brand's image with its customers, not necessarily its best selling model. Exactly. Further, both the CTS and MKT are probably the most complete examples of their respective brand's design language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 It would be the vehicle that best exemplifies the brand's image with its customers, not necessarily its best selling model. Not necessarily the best-selling, but rarely the worst. I wouldn't say the CTS-V exemplifies what the rest of Cadillac stands for either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Not necessarily the best-selling, but rarely the worst. I wouldn't say the CTS-V exemplifies what the rest of Cadillac stands for either. S-Class is the least popular of MB's 3 sedan families. Further, I would argue that the CTS-V would be described by everyone at GM as the 'soul' of Cadillac. It's not necessarily what everyone thinks of when they think of Cadillac, but it is what GM -wants- everyone to think of when they think of Cadillac. And therein lies the rub: there seems to be a bigger disconnect between GM & its customers than between Ford & its customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 S-Class is the least popular of MB's 3 sedan families. Unless you count the CLS as a sedan, which, really, it is. :D Further, I would argue that the CTS-V would be described by everyone at GM as the 'soul' of Cadillac. It's not necessarily what everyone thinks of when they think of Cadillac, but it is what GM -wants- everyone to think of when they think of Cadillac. And therein lies the rub: there seems to be a bigger disconnect between GM & its customers than between Ford & its customers. Well there we can be in agreement. Cadillac isn't what GM is trying to force it to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Infinity does not make cars. Yeah...but Infiniti does and they way less than their Nissin counterparts and have better breaks :hysterical: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) Guess I'll have to wait for an in person view. Cause no matter what color, options or angle this MKT has been presented in pics, it looks god awful! I still havent seen one in person. Im still not a fan of the way it looks in the pics either. Id like to say i agree with this article, but id much rather take the Caddy in this case. But who knows.... maybe when i see an MKT in person ill love it, but for now, its still ugly. +1 Well, I bet people around here say so, every chance they get "Nice Camry you got there. Oh, it's a Lexus? If it weren't for that badge, I'd never have guessed it!" I'm one who does! Anytime I'm at the gas station or store and the person next to me has one, I'll pay them a compliment of this nature. Many just get that shocked look like "The bastard said I had a Toyota". Edited September 22, 2009 by V8-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 When you are talking about "core" vehicles, I would argue you are talking about sales volumes. Was the Ford GT a "core" vehicle for Ford? Of course not. That's only because Ford never got around to introducing the GT Sedan, CUV and SUV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I did that to someone I know. He asked me "Did you see my new car?", I said "yeah but little old ladies drive Camry's", he got soooo offended... tells me 'Look, that is a Lexus (IS250), my wife got a ES350 and I got mine, we did a package deal", I'm like, "Oh yeah I heard about that IS250, it has a very cute engine I hear, but why did she get the bigger V6?" Hm he didnt know that part...then again, she earns the big bucks, so why not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 (edited) I did that to someone I know. He asked me "Did you see my new car?", I said "yeah but little old ladies drive Camry's", he got soooo offended... tells me 'Look, that is a Lexus (IS250), my wife got a ES350 and I got mine, we did a package deal", I'm like, "Oh yeah I heard about that IS250, it has a very cute engine I hear, but why did she get the bigger V6?" Hm he didnt know that part...then again, she earns the big bucks, so why not I guess you know who wears the cubic inches in that family. Edited September 23, 2009 by Mark B. Morrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolarBear Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 (edited) In all of the good posts, someone forgot one important point- Cadillac is still the top seller in the over $50,000 luxury car market in the US. Lexus, BMW, and even Mercedes are strongest at the lowest ends of their model ranges. Edited September 23, 2009 by PolarBear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 When you are talking about "core" vehicles, I would argue you are talking about sales volumes. Was the Ford GT a "core" vehicle for Ford? Of course not. By his definition (or at least my interpretation of his definition), a "core" vehicle is as RJ said.....it's the creme of the crop of the current lineups, the best example of what that brand is doing and where it's going when it comes to styling, quality, materials, features, etc.. Perhaps the word "core" was not the best word to use, but I figured out what he meant by it. It would be the vehicle that best exemplifies the brand's image with its customers, not necessarily its best selling model. +2 That's only because Ford never got around to introducing the GT Sedan, CUV and SUV. Hold the phone!! Here ya go, Mustang C/SUV!!! That's as close as I can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgande Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 ...It's not necessarily what everyone thinks of when they think of Cadillac, but it is what GM -wants- everyone to think of when they think of Cadillac. And therein lies the rub: there seems to be a bigger disconnect between GM & its customers than between Ford & its customers. I don't think this is a bad thing. Both Lincoln and Cadillac customer base represents a demographic that is on its way out the door. So GM is trying to reposition Cadillac to appeal to a younger audience. The CTS and the Escalade are the two vehicles that have the younger audience attention. Maybe not their dollars, but at least their attention. You might argue that this is a disconnect to its customers. I would argue that is -MAY- be a disconnect to its older customer base. But that next-generation of customers is indeed paying attention to what GM is doing with Cadillac. And dollars will eventually go towards that attention. Lincoln is not appealing to the same customer base that Cadillac is. Their 'core' vehicles make that evident. I haven't seem Ford try to reach out to that younger demographic of luxury buyers that Cadillac is trying to appeal to. Just as I don't see Cadillac trying to appeal to its current customer base. There just isn't any balance in the portfolios. I will say this though, who ever made the comment about the CTS and 'soul' is dead on! I don't think there is anything in the Lincoln lineup with that kind of soul. At least not yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I will say this though, who ever made the comment about the CTS and 'soul' is dead on! I don't think there is anything in the Lincoln lineup with that kind of soul. At least not yet. True. I'd like to buy a Ford luxury vehicle, but yeesh, even the MKS EcoBoost is kind of an "old man car" to me. The MKZ doesn't look to be worth the price premium over a Fusion either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 True. I'd like to buy a Ford luxury vehicle, but yeesh, even the MKS EcoBoost is kind of an "old man car" to me. The MKZ doesn't look to be worth the price premium over a Fusion either. My wife is really into Lincolns (and she's under 40!). She LOVES her '02 LS. When we talk about it replacing it, she wants another Lincoln. However, what she wants is NEW LS. So far the MKZ and MKS don't do it for her. The only Lincoln she'll consider is the MKX. It's quite possible we'll end up search for a low-mileage '06 LS as a replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgande Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 True. I'd like to buy a Ford luxury vehicle, but yeesh, even the MKS EcoBoost is kind of an "old man car" to me. The MKZ doesn't look to be worth the price premium over a Fusion either. I concur. I rented a Fusion during the Labor Day weekend. Took it out to Bethany Beach on the 'shore. Very impressed with it. Build quality was good. Good materials. I loved the accent lights! Steering was...sublime! Near a BMW, and that says a lot (at least to me). Ride was very smooth too. Great trunk space. I liked that car a lot. I hate that 4 banger though. Yuck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 (edited) I don't think this is a bad thing. Both Lincoln and Cadillac customer base represents a demographic that is on its way out the door. So GM is trying to reposition Cadillac to appeal to a younger audience. The CTS and the Escalade are the two vehicles that have the younger audience attention. Maybe not their dollars, but at least their attention. You might argue that this is a disconnect to its customers. I would argue that is -MAY- be a disconnect to its older customer base. But that next-generation of customers is indeed paying attention to what GM is doing with Cadillac. And dollars will eventually go towards that attention. Lincoln is not appealing to the same customer base that Cadillac is. Their 'core' vehicles make that evident. I haven't seem Ford try to reach out to that younger demographic of luxury buyers that Cadillac is trying to appeal to. Just as I don't see Cadillac trying to appeal to its current customer base. There just isn't any balance in the portfolios. I will say this though, who ever made the comment about the CTS and 'soul' is dead on! I don't think there is anything in the Lincoln lineup with that kind of soul. At least not yet. You brought this up before, and it amuses me that you've brought it up again. In 2006, Cadillac's buyers were one year younger than Lincoln's. So much for their efforts to bring in younger buyers. GM spent $5B (reportedly) to turn Cadillac into BMW and it hasn't worked--and it won't work because GM can't keep dumping money into Cadillac until BMW BUYERS (not internet nerds) start switching. Frankly, I don't care what some internet nerd says about the CTS-V & the Nurburgring. Why? Because that nerd can't afford a CTS-V so it doesn't really matter what he thinks. It's amusing to me that nobody frets over MB owners being in their late 50s, but somehow it's a sign of doom that Lincoln owners are in their alte 50s. Edited September 23, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 It's amusing to me that nobody frets over MB owners being in their late 50s, but somehow it's a sign of doom that Lincoln owners are in their alte 50s. The difference is when someone younger than the average demographic buys a MB (or a CTS in Cadillac's case) people see that buyer as being "ahead of the curve". When someone younger than the average demographic buys a Lincoln people see that buyer as being "out of touch". At least that's how I look at them, and I'm a F-L-M fan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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