Ford execs defend boxy Flex crossover

[akirby]

You do understand that we build the Edge and MkX an the exact same line, right? We could build straight Edges or straight Flexes (almost) and anywhere in between.

 

Right. The MKT shares the Explorer platform and Edge/MKX factory which should be fine with or without the Flex.

[mackinaw]

You do understand that we build the Edge and MkX an the exact same line, right? We could build straight Edges or straight Flexes (almost) and anywhere in between.

 

Yes, I'm aware that Oakville produces the Flex, MKT, Edge and MKX, but what happens to Oakville if you take away the ~40,000 yearly units the Flex accounts for?

 

My point is that the MKT needs the Flex. Take away the Flex and Lincoln is out of the large CUV market (until they put it on a different platform).

[akirby]

Yes, I'm aware that Oakville produces the Flex, MKT, Edge and MKX, but what happens to Oakville if you take away the ~40,000 yearly units the Flex accounts for?

 

My point is that the MKT needs the Flex. Take away the Flex and Lincoln is out of the large CUV market (until they put it on a different platform).

 

The 2011 Edge and MKX may increase their sales by 40K.

 

Does the Flex help the MKT? Yes. Is it absolutely required? Probably not.

[FordBuyer]

Yep, that's why those stupid Ford managers are refreshing both the Flex and MKT. They're just pissing that money away because Ford has proven the last 2 years that it knows nothing about building great vehicles and turning a profit.

 

Idiot.

 

It's an OPINION and prediction. Predictions on here are allowed. The article was basically making the same prediction. The new Exporer will cannibalize Flex sales just as the new Taurus marginalized MKS sales. I'm far from being the only one without Ford rose colored glasses on making same prediction. And quit showing your immaturity by calling poster names that doesn''t agree with your rose colored view of Ford. Ford has made so many bad moves in last few decades that one more is not even significant. The Flex will go the way of the Taurus X. And the MKT is an unmitigated disaster and those who say high ATP's are its saving grace have their head up their ass. Ford doesn't need TWO seven passenger CUVs getting 24mpg highway or 27 in Explorer's case. One is enough and Explorer's better fuel mileage will completely crater Flex sales. Stay tuned and watch Flex monthly sales numbers as Explorer production hits full stride. And amateur auto observor can see this train wreck coming from miles away. Not sure why you can't. And Ford isn't going to spend big money differentiating Flex from the Explorer. That would be waste of money.

[FordBuyer]

Yes, I'm aware that Oakville produces the Flex, MKT, Edge and MKX, but what happens to Oakville if you take away the ~40,000 yearly units the Flex accounts for?

 

My point is that the MKT needs the Flex. Take away the Flex and Lincoln is out of the large CUV market (until they put it on a different platform).

 

I believe in the last CAW contract in return for closing St. Thomas and new concessions, Ford promised Oakville new product. Edge/MKX makes up the bulk of production there, and another new product there would solidify production numbers assuming it's a decent selling market segment. I believe there was speculation the Grand C-Max would go there, but who knows now or if even Grand C-Max will come here as Ford hasn't said much at all of new product other than what we know already. I would imagine Oakville workers are getting a little antsy looking at Flex and especially MKT sales numbers and knowing new Explorer goes into production in a few months.

[sullynd]

Right. The MKT shares the Explorer platform and Edge/MKX factory which should be fine with or without the Flex.

 

MkT and Flex = D4

Explorer = D3

 

Wheelbase is ~5" longer on D4.

[FordBuyer]

Yep, that's why those stupid Ford managers are refreshing both the Flex and MKT. They're just pissing that money away because Ford has proven the last 2 years that it knows nothing about building great vehicles and turning a profit.

 

Idiot.

 

I don't think anyone including me is questioning most of the moves Ford has made in last few years. But that doesn't mean every move has been brilliant, and the bad moves haven't been major or significant to the bottom line yet anyway. But I can read sales numbers as well as the next guy, and know when a vehicle is in trouble. It's not rocket science. The MKS and MKT are not successful. The MKZ and MKX are struggling. The Flex is struggling. None of them came close to sales projections, and still disappointing even with bad economy. I believe the Freep article that just stated that Ford's Flex projections were 75,000-100,000 sales units once it hit full stride. Of course Ford is not going to publicly state disappointment and instead wil try to use PR by stating most sold are high end models. That is to be expected. No way would have Ford built the MKT to sell 700/month. No way would Ford have built MKS to sell only 1,200/month. I don't care if all were Ecoboost which they are not. Those are disappointing numbers. What is more perplexing is all the Ford fanatics believing everyting the Ford PR machine states. If Ford could keep selling 3,500-5,000 Flexes/month after the Explorer hits full stride, I could see Ford spending big money on new powertrains for it, but if sales fall below 2,000/month after Explorer hits dealerships, I don't see Mulally rubber stamping any huge outlay for it at all.

[OAC_Sparky]

I would imagine Oakville workers are getting a little antsy looking at Flex and especially MKT sales numbers and knowing new Explorer goes into production in a few months.

Not really so much. We're on 10 hours.

 

You don't have a clue about "flex-plant manufacturing". It doen't really matter if we built 50 Flexes a day as long as the plant's running full.

[Marginal Economist]

Ford doesn't need TWO seven passenger CUVs getting 24mpg highway or 27 in Explorer's case.

 

Let's look at Toyota vs Ford with third row seats

 

4 Runner - Explorer

 

Sienna - Flex

Highlander - Flex

 

Land Crusier - Expedition

Sequoia - Expedition

 

Toyota has 5 models - Ford has 3.

 

Highlander and Sienna have sold over 70K retail units through June. Edge can't take take that volume by itself, and it does not have the three row seat option. Flex, with a probable redesign, is going to stay.

[akirby]

I don't think anyone including me is questioning most of the moves Ford has made in last few years. But that doesn't mean every move has been brilliant, and the bad moves haven't been major or significant to the bottom line yet anyway. But I can read sales numbers as well as the next guy, and know when a vehicle is in trouble. It's not rocket science. The MKS and MKT are not successful. The MKZ and MKX are struggling. The Flex is struggling. None of them came close to sales projections, and still disappointing even with bad economy. I believe the Freep article that just stated that Ford's Flex projections were 75,000-100,000 sales units once it hit full stride. Of course Ford is not going to publicly state disappointment and instead wil try to use PR by stating most sold are high end models. That is to be expected. No way would have Ford built the MKT to sell 700/month. No way would Ford have built MKS to sell only 1,200/month. I don't care if all were Ecoboost which they are not. Those are disappointing numbers. What is more perplexing is all the Ford fanatics believing everyting the Ford PR machine states. If Ford could keep selling 3,500-5,000 Flexes/month after the Explorer hits full stride, I could see Ford spending big money on new powertrains for it, but if sales fall below 2,000/month after Explorer hits dealerships, I don't see Mulally rubber stamping any huge outlay for it at all.

 

How many Flex does Ford need to sell to keep it? How many MKT? What is the current profit level of each one? What are the future market predictions based on product updates and future market trends? What is the current ATP of each vehicle?

 

You don't know any of the answers (and neither do we), so STFU. The best you can say at this point is Flex and MKT sales are disappointing.

 

Why don't you think ATP matters? Higher ATP means more options and more profit on each vehicle. If Ford predicted 75000 sales at $5K profit but they get 40000 sales at $10K profit, which is better? Even you can do that math.

 

You're not an idiot because of your negative opinions. You're an idiot because none of your "opinions" or "predictions" are based on reality.

 

If the MKS needs to be killed due to slow sales, then how do you explain ALL of the other vehicles that sell MUCH less than the MKS every month?

 

Here are sales figures from April 09. I'm sure they haven't changed much.

 

Lincoln MKS - 1178

 

Lexus GS - 468

Infinti M35/45 - 441

Audi A6 - 388

 

I guess Audi needs to kill the A6 immediately. Ditto for Infiniti and Lexus. Boy are they stupid. Obviously nobody wants their vehicles.

 

And that's why you're an idiot who's dumber than a bucket of rocks.

[FordBuyer]

Not really so much. We're on 10 hours.

 

You don't have a clue about "flex-plant manufacturing". It doen't really matter if we built 50 Flexes a day as long as the plant's running full.

 

If we go by sales figures, you guys are already down to about 20 MKTs/day and probably not even that since dealers have about a 170 day supply of them as it is. Your theory may be tested sooner rather than later.

[FordBuyer]

And that's why you're an idiot who's dumber than a bucket of rocks.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Your immaturity is showing again. State your case if you disagree as you did and then know when to silence yourself. And if the Flex and MKT are killed off or allowed to die on the vine, I know for sure you will not recall these posts as you have shown your immaturity time and time again. I happen to believe Ford will keep on with the MKS and get it to be a somewhat decent seller. However, I hold out no hope for the MKT. IMO, it will be replaced by a Lincoln version of the Explorer and present MKT will never be seen again. And even if Ford gets the MKS significantly better which I'm sure it will, it's still another FWD vehicle, and many believe a luxury RWD vehicle would sell better. When the MKT is killed off, I will remind you of these posts and watch your silence for once. Ford may still call it an MKT which would be a mistake, but it won't be much like this cartoonish one. Let's fact facts...the front end and back end of the MKT are horrible, and it's not especially roomy in back, and is selling horribly. Lincoln needs a version of the Explorer, not an abomination of the Flex platform. The public has spoken...they don't like the MKT.

[FordBuyer]

Why don't you think ATP matters? Higher ATP means more options and more profit on each vehicle. If Ford predicted 75000 sales at $5K profit but they get 40000 sales at $10K profit, which is better? Even you can do that math.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There you go again. Your observations are faulty to begin with. You talk like all Ford sells is Limited Flexes. That is not the case. I don't know the percentages and you don't know either. I observe better than you. I know this is anecdotal and based in Metro Detroit (not representative of America), but most Flexes on Ford dealers lots around here are SEs with a few SELs, Limiteds, and very few Ecoboost models thrown in. Most of the best lease deals are on the SE. Most of the Flexes I see on streets are SEs. Again, I don't know the percentages as you don't either, but I know Ford sells a lot of SEs and SELs and a fair number of Limiteds. Dealers are not going to load lot up with SEs if they don't sell. Maybe Ford sold more Limiteds than they expected to sell,but they also sold a fair number of SEs that have ATPs way under $30,000. It's also more than just about profit, but also how much profit you can make and whether the effort and cost is worth the reward no matter how small. This is all conjecture anyway as we will have to wait and see how many Flexes Ford sells after new Explorer hits streets. In my view, the present Explorer doesn't compete with the Flex, but in my view and others obviously the next Explorer does, especially if Ford can't convince the public that it's an SUV.

 

I just saw a new Explorer at LTP, and checked it out. It was white and no camo, just test numbers up top front window on passenger side. When it comes directly at you, you'd swear at first that it's a Taurus. Rear side view has present Explorer design cues. The exterior is OK, but nothing like the concept which I liked better. I can see that Ford made the effort to make it appear more SUV like, but I would say it's a CUV with a modicum of SUV ability in it. Some will see it as a Taurus wagon depending upon the observation angle. For me, that is good. I can see Ford selling 100,000 of these/year, especially if it takes sales away from Flex. And there are still millions of old Explorers on the road, but I suspect many of those driving 12 year old Explorers can't afford a new Explorer. Not that many Taurus X owners out there. Hopefully Ford can win a few former Chevy Trailblazer owners since Chevy vacated the segment. I wish the new Explorer looked a bit better, but I'm sure Ford knew what it was doing in making it a little more conservative and not following design cues of concept. I wish them well on it and hope they can keep plant production high on it.

[fordmantpw]

. Your observations are faulty to begin with. You talk like all Ford sells is Limited Flexes. That is not the case. I don't know the percentages and you don't know either. I observe better than you. I know this is anecdotal and based in Metro Detroit (not representative of America), but most Flexes on Ford dealers lots around here are SEs with a few SELs, Limiteds, and very few Ecoboost models thrown in. Most of the best lease deals are on the SE. Most of the Flexes I see on streets are SEs. Again, I don't know the percentages as you don't either, but I know Ford sells a lot of SEs and SELs and a fair number of Limiteds. Dealers are not going to load lot up with SEs if they don't sell. Maybe Ford sold more Limiteds than they expected to sell,but they also sold a fair number of SEs that have ATPs way under $30,000. It's also more than just about profit, but also how much profit you can make and whether the effort and cost is worth the reward no matter how small. This is all conjecture anyway as we will have to wait and see how many Flexes Ford sells after new Explorer hits streets. In my view, the present Explorer doesn't compete with the Flex, but in my view and others obviously the next Explorer does, especially if Ford can't convince the public that it's an SUV.

 

If lots are full of SEs, wouldn't you think "hmm, why aren't hte SEs selling"? You said you don't know the percentages, so why are you trying to use them to your advantage? Again, your area is not the entire country. Around here, I see mostly limiteds. Again, that is not necessarily representative of the entire country, and I don't make it out to be. Ford has stated they have higher than expected ATP's on the Flex, and you can't deny akirby's statement:

 

If Ford predicted 75000 sales at $5K profit but they get 40000 sales at $10K profit, which is better?

 

We don't know what they make per car, but we do know that making a profit is more important than the total number of sales, and since the platform is shared, they need to sell fewer to make a profit.

[OAC_Sparky]

We don't know what they make per car, but we do know that making a profit is more important than the total number of sales, and since the platform is shared, they need to sell fewer to make a profit.

Which is also the point of flex-plant manufacturing.

 

The cost of manufacturing is spread over a few different platforms; as long as the plant is operating closer to capacity, it doen't matter as much what the mix is. No like the old days when a plant made one product and laid off when things got slow.

[FordBuyer]

If lots are full of SEs, wouldn't you think "hmm, why aren't hte SEs selling"? You said you don't know the percentages, so why are you trying to use them to your advantage? Again, your area is not the entire country. Around here, I see mostly limiteds. Again, that is not necessarily representative of the entire country, and I don't make it out to be. Ford has stated they have higher than expected ATP's on the Flex, and you can't deny akirby's statement:

 

 

 

We don't know what they make per car, but we do know that making a profit is more important than the total number of sales, and since the platform is shared, they need to sell fewer to make a profit.

 

Again for the upteenth time, Flex sales are not all that bad. I don't think they came very close to Ford's projections for it, but 4,000/month seems decent in this economy. It would be interesting to see the percentage of SE, SEL, Limited, and Ecoboost sold however. If Ford is satisfied, so be it. I know some months though Flex sales do look kind of bad. And other months decent. Not real consistent. My view though is the new Explorer will rob Flex of sales. That's what the theme of this thread is and what the Freep article stated. So if you disagree with article, you need to contact the writer of the story, not skewer me for agreeing. Oh, and anecdotally, SE seems to be most popular model in Metro Detroit, and I've heard that in CA you see scores of Limiteds on road there. So I'm sure the model mix changes from region to region. And of course in the tonier areas of Metro Detroit like Birmingham and Northville, you see more Limiteds.

[jpd80]

Again for the upteenth time, Flex sales are not all that bad. I don't think they came very close to Ford's projections for it, but 4,000/month seems decent in this economy. It would be interesting to see the percentage of SE, SEL, Limited, and Ecoboost sold however. If Ford is satisfied, so be it. I know some months though Flex sales do look kind of bad. And other months decent. Not real consistent. My view though is the new Explorer will rob Flex of sales. That's what the theme of this thread is and what the Freep article stated. So if you disagree with article, you need to contact the writer of the story, not skewer me for agreeing. Oh, and anecdotally, SE seems to be most popular model in Metro Detroit, and I've heard that in CA you see scores of Limiteds on road there. So I'm sure the model mix changes from region to region. And of course in the tonier areas of Metro Detroit like Birmingham and Northville, you see more Limiteds.

Ford could make the next Flex more aspirational like its original "Hamptons" concept idea and

like a less minivan with doors - that would separate Flex even further from Explorer.

 

just my two cents.

Edited August 22, 2010 by jpd80

[Chester]

My view though is the new Explorer will rob Flex of sales. That's what the theme of this thread is and what the Freep article stated. So if you disagree with article, you need to contact the writer of the story, not skewer me for agreeing.

I'm sure the new Explorer will rob some of the Flex sales, as the new Explorer has all the latest bells and whistles (my ford touch etc.). To compete, the Flex will need a re-freshening. But that said, Ford may not see a drop in sales of the Flex as more people may be coming into the show room with all the new added models (Fiesta, Explorer etc.) , and I suspect their will be some deals on the Flex's until they get the re-freshening.

[FordBuyer]

I'm sure the new Explorer will rob some of the Flex sales, as the new Explorer has all the latest bells and whistles (my ford touch etc.). To compete, the Flex will need a re-freshening. But that said, Ford may not see a drop in sales of the Flex as more people may be coming into the show room with all the new added models (Fiesta, Explorer etc.) , and I suspect their will be some deals on the Flex's until they get the re-freshening.

 

Metro Detroit Ford dealers (not representative of America) just announced another great deal: $299/month 24 month lease on Flex SE with Sync. Not a bad deal. With the shockingly low MKS lease deal, there should be an extra few Flexes and MKSs on Metro Detroit streets by end of August which is coming up quickly. And as of yet, no new Edges in any Western Wayne County Ford dealerships. With OAP only about 200 miles away, and Ford announcing they started shipping over a week ago, you would think someone would have one, but so far none in sight. Oh well, the Canada/U.S. border guards can be real pricks from time to time with their poker faces and their "pull it over to the right or left orders."

[FordBuyer]

Ford could make the next Flex more aspirational like its original "Hamptons" concept idea and

like a less minivan with doors - that would separate Flex even further from Explorer.

 

just my two cents.

 

Obviously, the wild card here is how much money is Ford willing to spend to further differentiate the Flex from the new Explorer, and whether the MCE will be effective in stabilizing or increasing sales. If we go by Ford history, there is good chance it will dieon the vine, but this is a new Ford and new Ford seems to keep improving until they get it right. Two 7 seat wagons still seem like too much redundancy to me when Ford has other needs like a smaller foot print pickup to consider or a unique Lincoln that is not based off anything the Ford brand makes. The Cadillac CTS is not a gussied up Chevy. I wish Ford luck on differentiating the Flex from the new Explorer and then marketing it as such even when it may still not be very differentiated. It will be challenging job to convince customers that it is different when it possibly may not be that much different. However, the new Ford seems to be very good at marketing now also. So who knows.

[sullynd]

The Cadillac CTS is not a gussied up Chevy.

 

The CTS is the only Cadillac (Other than the soon to be killed STS) which does not share a platform within GM, for now. The next refresh will see it share it's platform with the next gen Camaro.

[jpd80]

Obviously, the wild card here is how much money is Ford willing to spend to further differentiate the Flex from the new Explorer, and whether the MCE will be effective in stabilizing or increasing sales. If we go by Ford history, there is good chance it will dieon the vine, but this is a new Ford and new Ford seems to keep improving until they get it right. Two 7 seat wagons still seem like too much redundancy to me when Ford has other needs like a smaller foot print pickup to consider or a unique Lincoln that is not based off anything the Ford brand makes. The Cadillac CTS is not a gussied up Chevy. I wish Ford luck on differentiating the Flex from the new Explorer and then marketing it as such even when it may still not be very differentiated. It will be challenging job to convince customers that it is different when it possibly may not be that much different. However, the new Ford seems to be very good at marketing now also. So who knows.

 

A vehicle like the Flex with most of its versions selling above $30,000 has a great future IMO. Cadillac's biggest problem is that the CTS' Sigma platform is actually waining in popularity, SRX has picked up a bunch of sales since shifting from RWD to FWD/AWD and their new "flag ship" is also set to go on the FWD/AWD Super Epsilon platform as well.

 

Ford has done a perfect job of migrating itself from a low cost manufacturer to affordable quality products and basically moving all of its products up to the Mercury/Buick product level.

While there seems to be some urgency to remake Lincoln, the major battle remains with Ford branded vehicles gaining as many of those $35K-$40K sales as possible, vehicles like the Flex, Taurus, Explorer higher series Edge and Fusion all contributing to that image. With products like those, the need for stronger Lincoln sales is not as urgent and Ford can sit back and watch which way the market is going without the need for desperate action, something I fear GM will need to do with the CTS in the near future..

 

Sigma II now shares the Zeta's suspension, a move designed to bring both platforms closer together and more cost effective and if anything, the next CTS will be either bigger on Zeta II or smaller on Alpha - I'm not convinced that GM really knows which way they want to hop yet...

Edited August 22, 2010 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

The CTS is the only Cadillac (Other than the soon to be killed STS) which does not share a platform within GM, for now. The next refresh will see it share it's platform with the next gen Camaro.

 

I thought the Camaro was sharing it with the ATS?

[sullynd]

I thought the Camaro was sharing it with the ATS?

 

That's the buzz. ATS and Camaro on Alpha. As JP said above CTS may end up on ATS as well (or a version of Zeta)

[akirby]

Two 7 seat wagons still seem like too much redundancy to me when Ford has other needs like a smaller foot print pickup to consider or a unique Lincoln that is not based off anything the Ford brand makes.

 

From the reports we've seen it appears Ford is working on a new Ranger, new (refreshed) Flex and MKT and if you believe a certain colored friend - a RWD Lincoln performance sedan based on the Falcon. Refreshing the Flex and MKT isn't preventing them from doing other things at the same time.