Ford August 2010 Sales Figure Discussion

[FordBuyer]

Facts Fordbuyer FACTS!!! Get it through your dense skull. I want to see profit (or loss) per vehicle to prove that the MKT isn't worth it (and don't spout sales numbers as that's only ONE part of the equation). Otherwise, you're just pulling things out of your ass.

 

I'll give you a fact.....Ford wouldn't give the ok for the funds to build the MKT if 649 units/month were going to be its average sales rate. You know it and I know it. Quit acting like an ignorant cheerleader. You had better get ready for the demise of the MKT because it's coming. My guess is within three years tops and probably sooner. And big incentives can't be far behind with that sales rate. Then there goes your "high ATP's that you keep belaboring ad nauseum. You have to have good sales and low inventory to obtain high ATP's. And the MKT has neither. I doubt very much if MKT's inventory is much below 170 days based upon August sales. Can't you smell death in the air? For some reason, the obvious escapes you.

[rmc523]

I think the Flex/MKT refresh will show us what Ford really wants to do now that they aren't struggling to make a profit. With the Explorer out the Flex can be even more dramatic and be more of a specialized vehicle and with Lincoln getting attention now there are no excuses for the MKT either that they can't make huge platform changes in a MCE (or can they?).

 

I still think they'd be limited in what they can do regarding platform changes. I think we'll see measures that will lead to better fuel economy out of both vehicles, but I would not expect major changes to the platform - now body/interior-wise, for Flex, I could see an almost all-new interior similar to Explorer (though sticking with Flex's horizontal theme), and Edge-like revised front and rear designs. As for MKT, I could see a modestly revised interior (it's already very nice, and MKX got a similar-looking design, although maybe this is an opportunity to push the MKT a lot higher?), and a thoroughly refreshed front/rear perhaps fixing elements many here don't like (maybe move it closer to the concept's look even?).

 

You have to know when to give it up and move on.

 

I think you should take a little of your own advice...

[TomServo92]

I'll give you a fact.....Ford wouldn't give the ok for the funds to build the MKT if 649 units/month were going to be its average sales rate.

 

That's not a fact. IT'S YOUR OPINION.

 

Here's another learning aid for you:

 

o·pin·ion

 

–noun

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

 

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

 

Study it and try again.

[TomServo92]

Can't you smell death in the air? For some reason, the obvious escapes you.

 

The only thing I smell is the shit you pull from your ass that you try to pass off as "facts".

Edited September 4, 2010 by TomServo92

[TomServo92]

And you still don't understand why we think you're stupid.

 

And he never will. Stupidity is not self-cognizant.

[BrewfanGRB]

I'll give you a fact.....Ford wouldn't give the ok for the funds to build the MKT if 649 units/month were going to be its average sales rate.

 

Really? I'd love to know how you know this. Because if you have the inside info that NO ONE on this board, to date, as ever had, then you would get a degree of respect from me previously unseen. Oh wait, you DON'T have the inside info? You're simply saying 649 units/month isn't very good, so there's no way Ford would have approved it. Hmm. That sounds like bullshit, not fact.

 

Look, I'll give you this. Would I like to see the number higher? Sure. Do I think the sales really SHOULD BE higher? Sure. But, do I know the point at which Ford makes a profit or doesn't? Do I know the embedded costs of this model (considering the platform already exists)? Do I know the costs of an MCE? No, no and no. And neither do you. Has it occurred to you that Lincoln has this model to provide an offering in this space for the market? Has it further occurred to you that other than the LX, none of it's competitors sell significantly greater numbers?

 

This is what you need to understand--you're harping about sales using an arbitrary and completely random number. Even if you were to ignore the breakeven point and want it to be a "sales leader"...it's been proven to you with actual REAL facts (not FordBuyer "facts") that the MKT is competitive in its class. Period. And that's all that matters.

[FordBuyer]

That's not a fact. IT'S YOUR OPINION.

 

Here's another learning aid for you:

 

o·pin·ion

 

–noun

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

 

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

 

Study it and try again.

 

 

You are a condescending asshole. If you don't like my viewpoint and I'm far from alone in believing that the MKT is an utter failure, then put me on ignore. I'm not on trial and don't need your constant demeaning teacher moments. I know a failed product when I see it and don't need bricks falling on my head to figure it out. You obviously do. Ford is already on the defensive about the MKT and show and act it. Expect that to continue whether you like it or not as more and more take notice of the MKT failure. And you call me dense. That is laughable. I've forgotten more than you know.

[TomServo92]

You are a condescending asshole. If you don't like my viewpoint and I'm far from alone in believing that the MKT is an utter failure, then put me on ignore. I'm not on trial and don't need your constant demeaning teacher moments. I know a failed product when I see it and don't need bricks falling on my head to figure it out. You obviously do. Ford is already on the defensive about the MKT and show and act it. Expect that to continue whether you like it or not as more and more take notice of the MKT failure. And you call me dense. That is laughable. I've forgotten more than you know.

 

I know an idiot when I see it and don't need bricks falling on my head to figure it out. There are also plenty of people of on this board that agree with that as well. Don't like it? Don't post here.

 

As for the highlighted sentence, don't count on it. :shades:

[FordBuyer]

I know an idiot when I see it and don't need bricks falling on my head to figure it out. There are also plenty of people of on this board that agree with that as well. Don't like it? Don't post here.

 

As for the highlighted sentence, don't count on it. :shades:

 

I don't know your age, but I've been on this planet long enough to have seen lots of auto companies, brands, and nameplates disappear. Probably more than you unless you are older which I doubt. But who knows. And I've seldom been wrong about the demise of one. And I wasn't surprised by the demise of Mercury, only the timing. I was also around when the Edsel hit the street, and I remember telling my buddies that you wouldn't be seeing that vehicle very long also. MKT has Edsel written all over it. If the MKT were human, I would know it was terminal.

[TomServo92]

I don't know your age, but I've been on this planet long enough to have seen lots of auto companies, brands, and nameplates disappear. Probably more than you unless you are older which I doubt. But who knows. And I've seldom been wrong about the demise of one. And I wasn't surprised by the demise of Mercury, only the timing. I was also around when the Edsel hit the street, and I remember telling my buddies that you wouldn't be seeing that vehicle very long also. MKT has Edsel written all over it. If the MKT were human, I would know it was terminal.

 

No, you don't. At any rate, age does not automatically denote wisdom. I've met plenty of stupid octogenarians.

 

As for the MKT: I don't really know what will happen because I don't have all of the relevant facts about profit or loss. I'm WISE enough to to not make a determination due to that.

[2005Explorer]

I think the Flex/MKT refresh will show us what Ford really wants to do now that they aren't struggling to make a profit. With the Explorer out the Flex can be even more dramatic and be more of a specialized vehicle and with Lincoln getting attention now there are no excuses for the MKT either that they can't make huge platform changes in a MCE (or can they?).

 

As far as I am concerned they can drop the Flex with the new Explorer coming out. Even with some changes to the Flex the Explorer is going to "eat up" the Flex. If you think Flex sales have been luke warm up to now just imagine what happens when that shiny new stylish car based Explorer is sitting next to it? The Flex is a good vehicle, but people either love it or hate it. I think it is a cool ride, but most consumers seem to go for a more conventional style. If they dropped the Flex it would only improve the 2011 Explorer sales. I don't think that many people would run over to their Chevy dealer and get a Traverse or buy a minivan because the Flex is no longer offered. The Escape, Edge and Explorer are probably going to satisfy 90% of CUV buyers. If they need more then the Explorer they are probably looking at a truck based Expedition or Tahoe anyhow. Possibly Ford could do a little restyling on the Flex and throw some sliders on it. That might help a little. At least help it play in a different market.

 

As far as the MKT is concerned a simple fix is to make a Lincoln version of the 2011 Explorer. A nicely styled Lincoln CUV based on the 2011 Explorer would be much more successful. Sure it is my opinion, but I think with some simple restyling and an interior upgrade based on the 2011 Explorer would give Lincoln a much stronger seller then the current MKT with its "beached whale" styling.

Edited September 4, 2010 by 2005Explorer

[sullynd]

I'm not sure the Flex will survive, certainly as vehicles shift platforms away from D3/4. However, had the Flex not been available I don't know that there is a Ford I would have purchased instead. Love my Escape, but needed something bigger, Edge not big enough, Expedition too big and thirsty. The Explorer, while I'm sure it will sell well, is not my cup of tea.

 

I'm curious how sales would be if Flex got sliders....

[2005Explorer]

I'm curious how sales would be if Flex got sliders....

 

If Ford plans on keeping the Flex I really think they should look into sliders when they do an MCE on it. It would allow it to better compete in the conventional mini-van market and the Explorer would be less likely to cannibalize whatever sales it has remaining after the 2011 Explorer is launched.

[RichardJensen]

Flex & Explorer ~ Edge & Escape.

[2005Explorer]

Flex & Explorer ~ Edge & Escape.

 

I understand why you say that Richard, but honestly I feel that the Flex and the 2011 Explorer are much closer in size and price then the Escape and Edge are when it comes to cross-shopping different models from Ford. There is quite a large price and size difference between the Escape and Edge. Once you move up to the Explorer and Flex it is more of a style difference then a utility difference. Again just my opinion.

[FordBuyer]

I understand why you say that Richard, but honestly I feel that the Flex and the 2011 Explorer are much closer in size and price then the Escape and Edge are when it comes to cross-shopping different models from Ford. There is quite a large price and size difference between the Escape and Edge. Once you move up to the Explorer and Flex it is more of a style difference then a utility difference. Again just my opinion.

 

And the Edge and Escape have strong, healthy sales and lead their segments in sales most months. The Flex sales rate is marginal at best, and if the Explorer sells well, it will steal sales from the Flex that it can't afford to give up. The Edge and Escape don't seem to steal each others sales as they are not seen as in the same segment whether they are or not. The Explorer is an established nameplate, the Flex is not. With that said, I hope the Flex survives and prospers, but I wouldn't bet on it or expect it. Looks to me like it will eventually be bumped out.

[RichardJensen]

I understand why you say that Richard, but honestly I feel that the Flex and the 2011 Explorer are much closer in size and price then the Escape and Edge are when it comes to cross-shopping different models from Ford. There is quite a large price and size difference between the Escape and Edge. Once you move up to the Explorer and Flex it is more of a style difference then a utility difference. Again just my opinion.

 

How can two vehicles that look so different cannibalize sales from each other?

 

If the primary impetus behind new vehicle sales is irrational, of what matter is it that the two vehicles are rationally quite similar?

 

It is a mistake to look at the Flex and assume that it is doomed to failure based on its similarity to the Explorer, because that analysis misses the key strength of the Flex: its appeal to non-Ford buyers with high incomes.

 

These people don't want the Explorer and won't buy it. They will continue to buy the Flex.

[jpd80]

Any opinion that a D3 Explorer is going to canabalize sales from the Flex is unjustified,

BOF Explorer and Flex have existed together on the showroom for quite a while now

and there's no indication that the two models compete or are even cross shopped.

[2005Explorer]

Any opinion that a D3 Explorer is going to canabalize sales from the Flex is unjustified,

BOF Explorer and Flex have existed together on the showroom for quite a while now

and there's no indication that the two models compete or are even cross shopped.

 

I guess we will just have to wait and see what effect the new crossover Explorer has on Flex sales. I think cross shopping a car based Explorer with the Flex is much more likely then it was with the old school BOF Explorer. It is my opinion that the new CUV Explorer is a much closer competitor to the Flex then the outgoing Explorer.

 

But what do I know? Maybe your right in saying that the 2011 Explorer will have no effect on Flex sales. I guess we will find out what happens when the Explorer makes its way to the dealerships with its all new looks, improved road manners and much improved fuel economy.

[RichardJensen]

It is my opinion that the new CUV Explorer is a much closer competitor to the Flex then the outgoing Explorer.

Granted.

 

But when you're talking about the Flex customers, the most valuable Flex customers *aren't* cross-shopping the Flex with any other Ford products.

 

The Flex's value to Ford is as a conquest vehicle that is bringing in very high transaction prices.

 

The Flex is pulling in import buyers who are willingly dropping $40 large on it. That simply is *not* going to happen with the Explorer.

[RichardJensen]

Furthermore, the Flex need only amortize the cost of its tooling, as all other costs are amortized across a significantly large footprint. And at $40k+, the tooling costs are being well recovered.

[jpd80]

I guess we will just have to wait and see what effect the new crossover Explorer has on Flex sales. I think cross shopping a car based Explorer with the Flex is much more likely then it was with the old school BOF Explorer. It is my opinion that the new CUV Explorer is a much closer competitor to the Flex then the outgoing Explorer.

 

But what do I know? Maybe your right in saying that the 2011 Explorer will have no effect on Flex sales. I guess we will find out what happens when the Explorer makes its way to the dealerships with its all new looks, improved road manners and much improved fuel economy.

I see your point too and will moderate what I said.

The whole market is shifting away from larger SUVS to crossovers and in that respect,

Ford is following that trend by casting its net wide by offering Escape, Edge, Flex, Explorer

It seems like they're not sure which way the market is really trending, perhaps buyers are being

driven by doubt...gas price fluctuations or underlying soft recovery is masking the true intent of buyers.

 

Furthermore, the Flex need only amortize the cost of its tooling, as all other costs are amortized across a significantly large footprint. And at $40k+, the tooling costs are being well recovered.

Ford is 100% committed to D3 products, the returns across the range must be quite good,

because a platform like that wouldn't be given that many chances if it was a loss maker.

 

Common platform has a huge advantage, truly different vehicles at a fraction of the cost.

Edited September 5, 2010 by jpd80

[2005Explorer]

I get it that some of you like the Flex better then the new Explorer, but not me. The new Explorer looks good... no make that great! It looks sporty and adventurous. It has a style that will resonate much better with the majority of consumers. Just wait until the new Explorer is fully available and then see how the Flex fares against it in sales. If someone likes the Flex better that is fine with me, but I think the new Explorer is going to be much more successful. The only 7 passenger CUV that Ford offered up until now was the Flex. If you wanted a 7 passenger CUV with better fuel economy and you wanted a Ford product you had to buy a Flex. Now with the new Explorer available you have a choice at your Ford dealership. I think more people will choose the new Explorer over the Flex except for the conquest market that Richard mentioned. If you don't like my opinion that's fine. It is only my opinion.

 

The Flex is a fine vehicle, I just don't think it will fare as well in sales once the new Explorer hits the ground.

[sullynd]

Explorer could also mean more people in the showroom looking at Flex, and if they decide they want the 3.5 Ecoboost, they're not getting it from an Explorer.

 

The BOF Explorer was one of the runners up to our Flex, but one of my preferences was that the vehicle be a Ford, so that limited our options somewhat.

 

I'll be curious to see how rear legroom is in the Explorer compared to the Flex given it's 5" shorter in length.

Edited September 5, 2010 by sullynd

[RichardJensen]

I think the new Explorer is going to be much more successful.

It will sell better, but this isn't a race where the vehicle that sells the most 'wins'.