New Flagship LIncoln in the Works

[silvrsvt]

Personally, I like the idea of a "sporty C-Segment SUV" like the X3. I think, for one, there's a decent market for the class of vehicle and for two, it would cost Ford a hell of a lot less to develop this type of vehicle vs starting from whole cloth to build a 7-Series/S-Class competitor. Yes, I do really GET that to be considered by "luxury buyers", you feel Lincoln has to have the V8 RWD barge. I agree Benz and BMW wouldn't be the same without those vehicles.

 

But, as FordBuyer has so insistently pointed out with his 2000 units/month mantra, volume does matter to an extent. The best selling BMW is the 3-series. If anyone really, really thinks it's because it's a "luxury car that has RWD" then they are just flat-out cracked in the head. It sells because it's a freaking BMW--and because it's within reach for lots and lots of buyers. I mean, if all BMW buyers did so simply because of its architecture and power, who isn't the 7-series the best-selling model? Because it's $80k and middle managers across the country can't afford it! But they can afford a 35-40k 3-series.

 

See that further reenforces my point that the vast majority of "luxury" buyers are nothing more then poseurs trying to keep up with the Joneses...and makes the MKX and MKZ so important to Lincolns success, and the MKS or flagship much less so.

 

 

Look at the best selling Luxury makes...most of them make $$$ in the 30-40K range, and most of those products are just tarted up mid range cars that normally go for 20K or so.

 

 

[BrewfanGRB]

See that further reenforces my point that the vast majority of "luxury" buyers are nothing more then poseurs trying to keep up with the Joneses...and makes the MKX and MKZ so important to Lincolns success, and the MKS or flagship much less so.

 

Yep. Are there people that buy a 3-series because they appreciate the car itself (and don't get me wrong, it IS a great car), but buy the 3 because they can afford it and just don't want to over-reach for a 5? Yep. My BIL is one. He could, theoretically, buy a 7, but he runs his company in a small town. It would not go over well to be seen in an 80k vehicle. But he can appreciate a well-engineered, fun-to-drive car.

 

Me, OTOH, I can't really afford a 3-series. But, more than that, I don't want one. I don't want to drive 70 miles to get an oil change and spend crazy money to do it. I DO want a comfortable car with decent power and lots of cool features. A used MKZ fits those requirements for me. But here is the real problem: How does Lincoln get people to spend 36-38k for a decent MKZ new, when you could get a similarly decent 3 for that or perhaps a little more? There, the problem isn't REALLY, REALLY "product".

[NickF1011]

And the Caddy V8 is dead. They're using LS pushrod V8s exclusively in the CTS-Vs.

 

I see nothing particularly wrong with that. It's not like the LS engines have been widely criticized for their NVH or power output.

[NickF1011]

Personally, I like the idea of a "sporty C-Segment SUV" like the X3. I think, for one, there's a decent market for the class of vehicle and for two, it would cost Ford a hell of a lot less to develop this type of vehicle vs starting from whole cloth to build a 7-Series/S-Class competitor. Yes, I do really GET that to be considered by "luxury buyers", you feel Lincoln has to have the V8 RWD barge. I agree Benz and BMW wouldn't be the same without those vehicles.

 

But, as FordBuyer has so insistently pointed out with his 2000 units/month mantra, volume does matter to an extent. The best selling BMW is the 3-series. If anyone really, really thinks it's because it's a "luxury car that has RWD" then they are just flat-out cracked in the head. It sells because it's a freaking BMW--and because it's within reach for lots and lots of buyers. I mean, if all BMW buyers did so simply because of its architecture and power, who isn't the 7-series the best-selling model? Because it's $80k and middle managers across the country can't afford it! But they can afford a 35-40k 3-series.

 

While Lincoln must certainly keep a close eye on its bread-and-butter models (the MKZ, MKX, and upcoming c-segment CUV) in order to maintain dealer volume and sustainable profit margins, I still think they need to eventually, as they once said themselves, "reach higher".

[rmc523]

So the "remake" of Lincoln is going to consist of refreshes of the MKS, MKT, MKZ and a new small CUV and possibly a Lincoln SuperDuty? Seriously? That's it? No V8 or RWD sedan? (nothing wrong with Ecoboost, but luxury HAS to have an available V8)

 

Um, that's the SHORT TERM part of the plan - it takes time to properly develop new vehicles - they don't just appear out of nowhere! Besides, there's still 1-2 models we're unsure of regarding the vehicle type - remember, Lincoln has hinted at some sort of retractable roof vehicle.

 

 

[Sevensecondsuv]

Um, that's the SHORT TERM part of the plan - it takes time to properly develop new vehicles - they don't just appear out of nowhere! Besides, there's still 1-2 models we're unsure of regarding the vehicle type - remember, Lincoln has hinted at some sort of retractable roof vehicle.

 

I only hope you're correct here. The problem is that this supposedly came out of the meeting with Lincoln dealers where Ford was "laying it all on the line" for the dealers regarding products for the next five years (the time period for the "re-make" of Lincoln).

[NickF1011]

I only hope you're correct here. The problem is that this supposedly came out of the meeting with Lincoln dealers where Ford was "laying it all on the line" for the dealers regarding products for the next five years (the time period for the "re-make" of Lincoln).

 

Honestly, I don't think Ford ist going to tell anyone outside of the company (even dealers) what they have planned as far out as 5 years. They can give an overview of non-specific goals, but beyond that, I don't think we can read too much into the dealer meeting beyond the next 24 months.

[JLaudioF150]

Lincoln should include:

 

MKS

MKR

MKcuv (Escape-based)

MKX

Navigator

 

And a smaller, Lexus IS style RWD car replacing the MKZ – basically a MKR with 4 doors.

 

Done.

[NickF1011]

Lincoln should include:

 

MKS

MKR

MKcuv (Escape-based)

MKX

Navigator

 

And a smaller, Lexus IS style RWD car replacing the MKZ – basically a MKR with 4 doors.

 

Done.

 

Way to kill their highest volume vehicle of the past 5 years.

[akirby]

And a smaller, Lexus IS style RWD car replacing the MKZ – basically a MKR with 4 doors.

 

Because the Lexus IS is such a runaway sales hit, right? :shades:

[TomServo92]

Way to kill their highest volume vehicle of the past 5 years.

 

 

Because the Lexus IS is such a runaway sales hit, right? :shades:

 

Are you guys forgetting that the IS sells along side the higher volume ES? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that there could be a RWD sedan selling along side the MKZ?

[NickF1011]

Are you guys forgetting that the IS sells along side the higher volume ES? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that there could be a RWD sedan selling along side the MKZ?

 

I'd be all for that. But not flat out replacing the MKZ as JL suggested.

[Sevensecondsuv]

Is it beyond the realm of possibility that there could be a RWD sedan selling along side the MKZ?

 

Given Fords recent product direction, yes. Why would any logical person expect such a vehicle from a company that (again, based on recent product direction):

 

1. Wants to have everything but huge pickups riding on a FWD architecture.

2. Tries to put it's entire global vehicle line-up on 4-5 platforms while canceling every product that won't fit on one of those 4 or 5 platforms, claiming that there is no market for the canceled models.

[TomServo92]

Given Fords recent product direction, yes. Why would any logical person expect such a vehicle from a company that (again, based on recent product direction):

 

1. Wants to have everything but huge pickups riding on a FWD architecture.

2. Tries to put it's entire global vehicle line-up on 4-5 platforms while canceling every product that won't fit on one of those 4 or 5 platforms, claiming that there is no market for the canceled models.

 

There were also those that said Ford would never produce a Mustang GT with over 400HP nor be able to field a competitive B segment car based on previous product direction.

Edited October 6, 2010 by TomServo92

[NickF1011]

Given Fords recent product direction, yes. Why would any logical person expect such a vehicle from a company that (again, based on recent product direction):

 

1. Wants to have everything but huge pickups riding on a FWD architecture.

2. Tries to put it's entire global vehicle line-up on 4-5 platforms while canceling every product that won't fit on one of those 4 or 5 platforms, claiming that there is no market for the canceled models.

 

1. Mustang? Falcon? T6 Ranger? Territory? E-series? Transit?

 

2. Which cancelled models in recent years that rode on their own platforms actually did have a market that couldn't be just as effectively covered by one of their global platform variants?

[campbell53]

you'd better be wrong. If Ford can- with a straight face- say here is our 5 year Lincoln plan. Nothing held back. Now go build a $1 million showroom. I need to know EVERYTHING in order to make an informed decision. Anything less would be a moral and ethical violation of the highest order.

 

quote name='NickF1011' date='06 October 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1286394626' post='648005']Honestly, I don't think Ford ist going to tell anyone outside of the company (even dealers) what they have planned as far out as 5 years. They can give an overview of non-specific goals, but beyond that, I don't think we can read too much into the dealer meeting beyond the next 24 months.

[Sevensecondsuv]

1. Mustang? Falcon? T6 Ranger? Territory? E-series? Transit?

Mustang I don't understand. Even after a huge powertrain update it sells no better than the ancient panthers did - but somehow the Mustang is justafiable (but hey, I'm all for having a halo car and the Mustang is awesome so I won't complain). Falcon, T6, Territory are non-US (if we had them here I wouldn't be complaining about Ford's lack of RWD product). E-Series - Ford is going to replace them with the FWD transit as soon as CAFE forces it. Transit - is FWD, unibody. At least the one the US gets anyways.

 

 

2. Which cancelled models in recent years that rode on their own platforms actually did have a market that couldn't be just as effectively covered by one of their global platform variants?

 

Ranger, Off-Road SUV (Bronco / Early Explorer). Even panthers to an extent (although the Taurus PI will do most of what the Panther's did, with things like being the King of demo-derbies and engine swaps from an F-250 excluded - but why should Ford care about people want to do with their 20-year old used product?)

Edited October 6, 2010 by Sevensecondsuv

[2b2]

you'd better be wrong. If Ford can- with a straight face- say here is our 5 year Lincoln plan. Nothing held back. Now go build a $1 million showroom. I need to know EVERYTHING in order to make an informed decision. Anything less would be a moral and ethical violation of the highest order.

it sure sounds like this to me

 

but then I'm extremely prejudiced

[RangerM]

A Lincoln Super Duty-based pickup in the future?

 

Could the third time be the charm for Lincoln? Ford execs have already stated their plans to revitalize the company’s neglected luxury brand with seven all-new or significantly revised vehicles in the next four years. One of them could be a new luxury pickup, according to a source.

[Blue II]

Are you guys forgetting that the IS sells along side the higher volume ES? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that there could be a RWD sedan selling along side the MKZ?

 

The 014 Mustang could use a budy to help out on volume. Make em both RHD and export the lot.

[JLaudioF150]

The 014 Mustang could use a budy to help out on volume. Make em both RHD and export the lot.

 

To me, Lincolns line up must include a Mustang-based model. Something to compete with the IS, the G37, etc. Don't know the sales figs for those, but damn they are quite common around here. As for the MKZ, I guess its too similar to the MKS...

 

Also, quit the all our models share the same grill crap.

[rmc523]

Mustang I don't understand. Even after a huge powertrain update it sells no better than the ancient panthers did - but somehow the Mustang is justafiable (but hey, I'm all for having a halo car and the Mustang is awesome so I won't complain). Falcon, T6, Territory are non-US (if we had them here I wouldn't be complaining about Ford's lack of RWD product). E-Series - Ford is going to replace them with the FWD transit as soon as CAFE forces it. Transit - is FWD, unibody. At least the one the US gets anyways.

 

So a more expensive, not fleet-only sports car with limited room does not outsell fleet-only/dumped cheaper large cars? Hmmm

 

Transit is FWD, AWD, and RWD.

[BrewfanGRB]

Even panthers to an extent (although the Taurus PI will do most of what the Panther's did, with things like being the King of demo-derbies and engine swaps from an F-250 excluded - but why should Ford care about people want to do with their 20-year old used product?)

 

They shouldn't. The problem is just because YOU want to dump some huge truck engine into an outdated, unsafe-by-contemporary-standards, bloated sedan, just because it's RWD doesn't mean: 1) that it's a good idea by any stretch of the imagination for FORD do something like this, even with a new, up-to-date architecture or 2) that really anyone else has the same interests you do.

 

I totally respect what you WANT and LIKE to drive. No problems. But, really, you're getting like FordBuyer---essentially saying: "If I want it, it's probably a good idea, so Ford should do it and if they don't do it, they're losing me as a customer and are destined for failure".

 

FWD is here to stay. CAFE or not, buyers on the whole (you know, the HUGE groups of people that provide Ford with its profit, which, you know, is its ONLY reason for existing) like FWD and DO NOT CARE about RWD. That must be disappointing to you, but it's true. I don't like being a dick, but you and your feelings don't matter to Ford. But neither do mine. And nor should they.

[FordBuyer]

They shouldn't. The problem is just because YOU want to dump some huge truck engine into an outdated, unsafe-by-contemporary-standards, bloated sedan, just because it's RWD doesn't mean: 1) that it's a good idea by any stretch of the imagination for FORD do something like this, even with a new, up-to-date architecture or 2) that really anyone else has the same interests you do.

 

I totally respect what you WANT and LIKE to drive. No problems. But, really, you're getting like FordBuyer---essentially saying: "If I want it, it's probably a good idea, so Ford should do it and if they don't do it, they're losing me as a customer and are destined for failure".

 

FWD is here to stay. CAFE or not, buyers on the whole (you know, the HUGE groups of people that provide Ford with its profit, which, you know, is its ONLY reason for existing) like FWD and DO NOT CARE about RWD. That must be disappointing to you, but it's true. I don't like being a dick, but you and your feelings don't matter to Ford. But neither do mine. And nor should they.

 

Let's see.....Chrysler sold almost 11,000 new RWD/4WD Grand Cherokees last month. Cadillac sold almost 4,000 RWD CTSs last month and regularly tops 4,000. And if refreshed RWD Charger and 300 get spike in sales, I would say there is a market for RWD vehicles other than sport coupes, sports cars, and pickups. Instead of focusing only the demise of the G8, how about focusing on the RWD vehicles that do well.

[Marginal Economist]

Let's see.....Chrysler sold almost 11,000 new RWD/4WD Grand Cherokees last month. Cadillac sold almost 4,000 RWD CTSs last month and regularly tops 4,000. And if refreshed RWD Charger and 300 get spike in sales, I would say there is a market for RWD vehicles other than sport coupes, sports cars, and pickups. Instead of focusing only the demise of the G8, how about focusing on the RWD vehicles that do well.

Let's let Ford and Lincoln focus on being profitable for the company, dealerships, and suppliers. Ford and Lincoln are committed to coming out with Best in Class vehicles and improving the quality and value for their customers. There are limited funds to design, develop, manufacture, launch, and support vehicles. Ford is trying to get the market share back above 15%. If we could eventually get to 1 out of 6 vehicle sales, that would be fantastic. Ford does not need to be everything to everyone and play in every segment to get there. I wish we had a new Ranger, new big RWD Sedan, small RWD coupe/cabrio, Minivan, V8 Ecoboosts, and more. It is more important to me that Ford does not bite off more than it can chew with it's reduced workforce and shrinking dealer network.

 

The top 2 selling vehicles for Lexus are a FWD sedan and a FWD/AWD crossover. C, CD car, and CUV are the fastest growing segments. The 35-50 year old buyers are purchasing in this segment. Let's let Lincoln focus their resources in this sweet spot and gain market share so that the remaining dealers can be profitable.