Ford Vertrek Concept

[RichardJensen]

Question is do you feel that:

1) the Focus as being offered could have been regionalized economically and achieve more sales?

2) the Focus as offered will be more than acceptable to most buyers that cross shop other makes?

See above: Solid NA ergonomics are being shoved aside for questionable EU ergonomics.

 

I don't think that something like power locks should be regionalized. That component should be standardized. But it should be standardized to 'best available', as determined by ergonomic studies and cost. Frankly, I find the excessively complex central locking structure (pull latch twice to unlock, push plunger to lock, what the??) to be unjustifiable, except as an executive decision based strictly on novelty (well novelty and a certain smugness from FoE to the effect that such counterintuitive balderdash is 'better' than any sort of straightforward operation).

 

----

 

Regarding 'more than acceptable':

 

What is the threshold for customer annoyance?

 

And I want to make something crystal clear here:

 

Ford gained about 15-20% market share over the last two years, primarily with vehicles that were engineered for the NA market (Fiesta & TC excepted). Over the last two years, as well as the last five, Ford's European market share has been stagnant.

 

It is the height of folly to sneer at FNA products, and praise FoE products, if one looks at their comparative performance in their respective markets.

 

Bottom line: FNA has done several things right, and as far as I can tell, that is generally being overrun by a combination of EU "NIH" arrogance and novelty.

Edited January 12, 2011 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

The improvement in Ford NA sales % had more to do with good product generally than just

central locking in a certain place. I don't think the issue is as big of a deal as you're making out.

 

Sure, controls are different and I'll be interested to see whether it's actually

a deal breaker and a walkaway preferring other products with NA features.

I think you'll find customers now have a different order priorities with Fords.

 

ATM, around 50,000 to 60,000 Focus get built each month around the globe

with FNA accounting for about a quarter of that, I think that's a powerful view.

 

Ford NA will probably get to do their own thing with the CD4, probably sell

the bulk of that product in the Americas, so only natural.

Edited January 12, 2011 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

The improvement in Ford NA sales % had more to do with good product generally than just

central locking in a certain place.

My point, though, is that a good product is the sum of many small decisions, not a number of iffy decisions that are overcome by a single good one.

 

The central locking, the elimination of (simpler) NA head units for more complex and Honda-bad EU head units, the gamble that styling decisions can be made simultaneously for both the US and EU---based on the notion that what's acceptable in the EU will be acceptable in the US.

 

FoE's track record, frankly, is not stunning. Granted, they returned to profitability before FNA, but they generate less volume, less profit, and less revenue than FNA. They have less market share and they have performed worse against their peers over the last half decade. Also, their quality is worse.

 

All of this resonates with the gut feeling I have that FoE's judgment in Dearborn is respected perhaps more for the accent which delivers it, as opposed to the strength of its logic. I think there is a fascination with vehicles that bear the Ford badge that are unlike Ford products for sale here, that appeals to decision makers who eat, sleep, and breathe FNA product in Dearborn.

 

I think the novelty of FoE's controls overcomes their awkwardness for sated executives, but not for first time customers.

 

----

 

Here's a short question:

 

"Why use a lock system that costs more and does not operate as expected?"

 

If you can come up with a logical answer to that..................................................

Edited January 12, 2011 by RichardJensen

[sullynd]

This reminds me of the CNN headline: "Mayor uses twitter to clear sidewalks."

 

As it turns out, a website did *not* clear the sidewalks, people did. Twitter was just a communication facilitator.

 

HA! The "Rules of the Road" book when I took Drivers Ed had a chapter on drunk driving. It began "In this chapter you will learn about driving while Intoxicated." The instructor didn't laugh when I asked for a beer.

[jpd80]

My point, though, is that a good product is the sum of many small decisions, not a number of iffy decisions that are overcome by a single good one.

 

The central locking, the elimination of (simpler) NA head units for more complex and Honda-bad EU head units, the gamble that styling decisions can be made simultaneously for both the US and EU---based on the notion that what's acceptable in the EU will be acceptable in the US.

 

FoE's track record, frankly, is not stunning. Granted, they returned to profitability before FNA, but they generate less volume, less profit, and less revenue than FNA. They have less market share and they have performed worse against their peers over the last half decade. Also, their quality is worse.

 

All of this resonates with the gut feeling I have that FoE's judgment in Dearborn is respected perhaps more for the accent which delivers it, as opposed to the strength of its logic. I think there is a fascination with vehicles that bear the Ford badge that are unlike Ford products for sale here, that appeals to decision makers who eat, sleep, and breathe FNA product in Dearborn.

 

I think the novelty of FoE's controls overcomes their awkwardness for sated executives, but not for first time customers.

While Foe may be the darling child, this is far from enforced platforms with zero decision making from NA,

you may well find that FNA went along with what you refer as errors or mistakes because they can see

that Americans will ultimately accept the different controls, euro styling and different types of vehicles on offer.

 

After all if staying separate to the rest of the world was a good thing for NA, Mulally and Kuzak would allow it,

and in fact have done so with regional platforms that take in the bulk of sales.

 

 

Here's a short question:

 

"Why use a lock system that costs more and does not operate as expected?"

 

If you can come up with a logical answer to that..................................................

 

1) The technology is already in use with C1 has been for quite a few years

2) people elsewhere know use and accept the systems as sales are upwards of 45,000 buyers/month

3) Ford has not reported any adverse problem with buyer acceptance or complaints operating controls.

 

So therefore, the costs have already been amortized, people elsewhere are used to the systems and

obviously Ford Execs are comfortable beliving that the American consumer will come on board.

 

I would suggest that you get over it and move on because Ford isn't going to change the system.

Edited January 13, 2011 by jpd80

[twmalonehunter]

While Foe may be the darling child, this is far from enforced platforms with zero decision making from NA,

you may well find that FNA went along with what you refer as errors or mistakes because they can see

that Americans will ultimately accept the different controls, euro styling and different types of vehicles on offer.

 

After all if staying separate to the rest of the world was a good thing for NA, Mulally and Kuzak would allow it,

and in fact have done so with regional platforms that take in the bulk of sales.

 

 

 

 

1) The technology is already in use with C1 has been for quite a few years

2) people elsewhere know use and accept the systems as sales are upwards of 45,000 buyers/month

3) Ford has not reported any adverse problem with buyer acceptance or complaints operating controls.

 

So therefore, the costs have already been amortized, people elsewhere are used to the systems and

obviously Ford Execs are comfortable beliving that the American consumer will come on board.

 

I would suggest that you get over it and move on because Ford isn't going to change the system.

 

 

Jeez, I can't believe that the position of a door lock button can spur a 12 page long debate.

[Hugh]

Jeez, I can't believe that the position of a door lock button can spur a 12 page long debate.

Yes, I saw pictures of the C-Max where the power lock switches are part of the interior door handle. That makes sense and looks good.

I assume your kidding mentioning this, because I am kidding too. I understand the debate and the points everyone is trying to make regarding the FNA/FOE styling points. That's not going away anytime soon.

[Noah Harbinger]

My only contribution: I don't give a damn where the lock buttons are because I will never use them: If the keys are not in my hand, I won't lock the doors; if they are, I will use the remote. I for one have never locked myself out yet.

 

On my Elantra, there is a mechanical connection between the Lock lever (in the door pull) and the lock. However, if the computer senses that you are locking it at a Forbidden Time, it will then use the power-unlock mechanism to unlock it. It also affects all doors when you lock/unlock the front seat doors - including from the front passenger's door. Frickin' annoying if you ask me.

[RichardJensen]

Americans will ultimately accept the different controls, euro styling and different types of vehicles on offer.

When have Americans, in aggregate, ever been willing to adapt their habits?

 

Further, I'm not talking about keeping EU stuff out of NA. The EU HVAC controls are superior in layout to NA HVAC controls. That layout should be kept vs. the NA layout. However, NA radio and locking systems are superior.

 

the costs have already been amortized

The unit cost for the EU system is higher at the same volume as the NA system, because the EU system has more moving parts.

 

The question of 'getting over it'--this isn't about anything so much as it is about what--on very close examination--is a poor decision. A poor decision that is being repeated.

 

And that suggests a flawed process.

 

And a flawed process will continue to produce flawed decisions (as a rule) until it is corrected.

Edited January 13, 2011 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

The question of 'getting over it'--this isn't about anything so much as it is about what--on very close examination--is a poor decision. A poor decision that is being repeated.

 

And that suggests a flawed process.

 

And a flawed process will continue to produce flawed decisions (as a rule) until it is corrected.

Unless you can prove that it is a poor decision and the process is flawed, you don't have a leg to stand on.

The system has been in use for years in C1 is more of a carry over item so to Ford it's a non-issue.

I would say because of its wide use, Ford decided not to change - possibly long term supply contracts?

 

We will see soon enough, with sales beginning in north America, Europe and the rest of the world this year

it won't take long for teething problems and customer gripes to emerge. If the central lock position becomes

a major irritation it will be interesting to see how its remedied..

Edited January 13, 2011 by jpd80

[BlackHorse]

Jeez, I can't believe that the position of a door lock button can spur a 12 page long debate.

 

It's a tempest in a teacup. The position of the door locks is not an issue of any real concern.

[BrewfanGRB]

I have yet to hear anyone say they won't buy a vehicle, due to the location of the central lock button.

 

Maybe I won't go so far as to say "I WON'T BUY IT" but I would seriously pause--if this button is in a truly idiotic position, what other stuff am I going to grow to hate? Silly? Perhaps. Overboard? Maybe. But last I checked, nobody but me is yanking the cash out of my checking account to pay the loan. That means...yep, I get to make the decisions. I'd do it for no other reason than to tell Ford: If I wanted Eurocentric nonsensical ergonomics foisted upon me, I'd buy a Mercedes or a BMW. But I have absolutely ZERO interest in those vehicles. I WANT to buy a FORD--it's in Ford's interest to build a car I want to buy.

[BrewfanGRB]

FNA with its superior Single steering column stalk? WTF how much crap can we put on that thing. turn signal, high beams, and wiper controls. how many times have I driven the Taurus, or fusion and turned on the Wiper when trying to use the turn signal. this is serious issue in my opinion.

 

What? I've had my car for nearly 2 years and spent 48k miles in it. I've NEVER turned on the wipers while intending to signal. And where should the high beams be located? A 3rd stalk? I LOVE the single stalk--spin the end for wipers, up/down for signals, in/out for high beams. This is complex? Guess it's the "central door lock" issue for some folks.

[BrewfanGRB]

I would suggest that you get over it and move on because Ford isn't going to change the system.

 

Ultimately, I agree with Noah...I rarely use the central locks anyway (perhaps when I pick someone up without exiting the vehicle and have to unlock the door for them)...as I also only use the fob to lock/unlock. BUT, if I find an issue that I hate and would have to "get over it and move on", it'll be moving on to another vehicle. I'm one guy, Ford doesn't care about me (nor should they). I'm just saying--I won't go along to get along unless *I* decide I can live with it.

[NickF1011]

Power Mirrors and Windows. The lock button is visible next to the Hazard button on the stack.

 

I really wish Ford would stop putting the hazard button right below the touch screen!!!

[RichardJensen]

I would say because of its wide use, Ford decided not to change - possibly long term supply contracts?

Because the NA system is *not* in wide use? Because the NA system doesn't have long term supply contracts?

 

The only reasonable explanation I have is that FoE's electronics were kept, which meant keeping these ridiculous locks.

 

Ultimately, I see decent NA work being discarded for subpar FoE work, and I don't like it.

 

Look at the head unit on the high end Grand C-Max. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to any Ford NA head unit--including the ones in the Fiesta and Focus, and its iDrive joystick thingy is a dead-end. It's nothing like any other interface Ford is using in NA.

 

I don't like crap like that going on at Ford. I don't like it at all.

[Biker16]

What? I've had my car for nearly 2 years and spent 48k miles in it. I've NEVER turned on the wipers while intending to signal. And where should the high beams be located? A 3rd stalk? I LOVE the single stalk--spin the end for wipers, up/down for signals, in/out for high beams. This is complex? Guess it's the "central door lock" issue for some folks.

 

why are the Wiper controls on the same stalk as the turn signals and high-beams?

 

imagine if you had rear wiper controls on the same stalk?

[RichardJensen]

why are the Wiper controls on the same stalk as the turn signals and high-beams?

 

imagine if you had rear wiper controls on the same stalk?

Having lived with that setup for 6 years, what I find annoying is that the high beam switch pushes the stalk too far forward to be convenient with a hand on the wheel. I have *never* turned the wipers on while signaling a turn.

 

And if the FoE two stalk setup is rated better, so be it. The FoE HVAC controls are better as well.

 

What this *should* be is a merger of best practices, not the sublimation of one set of ergonomics to another, regardless of relative merit. I don't think any realistic comparison of FoE's scattering of dissimilar and tiny buttoned stereo units to the NA units would favor the FoE designs, yet they're being kept. Most likely because the electronic architecture is not being overhauled.

 

However, dismissing superior solutions and retaining inferior solutions is not 'One Ford', it's the sublimation of every other entity to FoE practices. It's not a merger, it's a takeover.

[RichardJensen]

why are the Wiper controls on the same stalk as the turn signals and high-beams?

To answer that question as directly as possible:

 

Because that setup is compatible with column shifters.

[akirby]

imagine if you had rear wiper controls on the same stalk?

 

I don't have to imagine - I've had it like that in several vehicles including the 2008 Edge. Never had a problem with it.

[MKII]

Look at the head unit on the high end Grand C-Max. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to any Ford NA head unit--including the ones in the Fiesta and Focus, and its iDrive joystick thingy is a dead-end. It's nothing like any other interface Ford is using in NA.

 

I don't like crap like that going on at Ford. I don't like it at all.

 

You mean this IP in the N.A. spec C-Max (image from the NAIAS C-Max)

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/auto123/page7/

[RichardJensen]

Yeah. Where else is that iDrive thingy used? Oh yeah, it's used in the Grand C-Max. But it has totally different functionality in that application. And, while we're at it, what is up with that ghastly carbuncle of a CD player?

 

And console mounted rotary seat heaters?

 

You get in your new Edge and you have to set the seat heaters with the MFT. You switch over to your new C-Max and guess what? You've got console mounted dial seat heaters that (probably) are not controlled by the MFT interface.

 

I remember 4 years ago when Ford vowed to put a stop to this kind of idiocy.

Edited January 13, 2011 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

Because the NA system is *not* in wide use? Because the NA system doesn't have long term supply contracts?

 

The only reasonable explanation I have is that FoE's electronics were kept, which meant keeping these ridiculous locks.

1)The parts supply contract for C170 NA Focus has ended.

2) Because Global Focus currently outsells NA Focus by a wide margin and their supply contracts are much larger

3) Kuzak and the other execs are besotted with all things European, it takes time to fall out of love...

 

 

Ultimately, I see decent NA work being discarded for subpar FoE work, and I don't like it.

 

Look at the head unit on the high end Grand C-Max. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to any Ford NA head unit--including the ones in the Fiesta and Focus, and its iDrive joystick thingy is a dead-end. It's nothing like any other interface Ford is using in NA.

We get that, everything European is the flavor at Ford but it's confined to Fiesta, Focus and C-Max.

 

I don't like crap like that going on at Ford. I don't like it at all.

A lot of things are changing at Ford, I knew the days would come when our favorite products

either disappeared or changed to something supporters felt was below par/substandard.

This is the new Ford, a mixture of NA and FoE influence that seems to be fighting an internal

battle for supremacy, I just hope thay sort out the stupid niggles that are creeping in.

 

And RJ FWIW,

I agree with you re some FoE systems, some of their switches and placement are

not as ergonomically friendly as NA / Aussie, let's hope that Ford addresses these

flaws before they start that continual "bump in the road" annoyance with customers...

 

Ford has a lot of good will with customers ATM, I'd hate for that to be negated

by small annoyances that detract form otherwise good designs.

Edited January 13, 2011 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

1)The parts supply contract for C170 NA Focus has ended.

The FNA lock system is used on millions of vehicles, not just C170.

mixture of NA and FoE influence

From where I sit it's all FoE. That will continue with CD4.

[jpd80]

The FNA lock system is used on millions of vehicles, not just C170.

NA versus Global, sales are like 60:40 so I could see the supply contracts for international

or globals goes with FoE platform and the domestics staying with the NA locks.

I know it's strange but I've seen this happen in the rest of the world...

 

 

From where I sit it's all FoE. That will continue with CD4.

That's a bit negative, FNA are controlling that project and the four year time line

says that maybe everything is being reworked with EUCD -> CD4.

 

On the other hand,

FNA is farming out a lot of the engineering sub modules to other divisions

so your fears could be well founded, I guess we'll have to wait and see...