PREMiERdrum Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Of course we see no evidence of an MCE on the horizon for the Flex, but we have seen evidence of one for the Taurus. The beauty of platform sharing... the same old clobbered together Flex/Freestyle mules could still be trolling around Detroit, with something new under the steel. Remember, too, that we only saw scant evidence of a new Focus cooling mule very shortly before its debut. They're getting better at hiding their mules. :ninja: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Of course we see no evidence of an MCE on the horizon for the Flex, but we have seen evidence of one for the Taurus. I wouldn't say a taped up front end that is barely different then the current Taurus is an MCE. Could be a prototype for new engine testing in the Taurus and or the MKS. We never saw a real Focus mule running around either....so we should we assume that it would look like the C1 Focus? Just because we didn't see doesn't mean its not being worked on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I wouldn't say a taped up front end that is barely different then the current Taurus is an MCE. Could be a prototype for new engine testing in the Taurus and or the MKS. We never saw a real Focus mule running around either....so we should we assume that it would look like the C1 Focus? Just because we didn't see doesn't mean its not being worked on. If all that is being changed is the interior and some outside cosmetics, there is very little reason for extensive road testing. About the only reason they would even need to test as far as powetrains are concerned is cooling, considering all of the powertrains it might get have already been extensively tested in other platform mates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I wouldn't say a taped up front end that is barely different then the current Taurus is an MCE. Could be a prototype for new engine testing in the Taurus and or the MKS. We never saw a real Focus mule running around either....so we should we assume that it would look like the C1 Focus? Just because we didn't see doesn't mean its not being worked on. That Taurus was a cooling mule, only the front fascia was covered and the rear end was mutilated to accommodate hardware modifications, the full extent of the revision can't be gleaned there, but it's safe to say it's probably not a major cosmetic update. However, anytime you touch a Ford now, you have to gut the interior for My-Ford Touch, the same will need to be done for the Flex and MKT soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 However, anytime you touch a Ford now, you have to gut the interior for My-Ford Touch, the same will need to be done for the Flex and MKT soon. "Gut" is a bit extreme of a verb, don't you think? It requires a new IP, steering wheel, and center stack. I doubt it would even require redesigning the dash support unless they wanted to significantly alter the look. The Flex's interior is pretty top notch already. Things such as door panels, center console, seats, headliner, etc might not necessarily need to change, although they may anyway just to show off something new and fresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 how much does Ford lose on each Flex? How much does Ford profit on each one? You can't answer that question. You can guess, theorise, or just plain pull numbers out of your ass, but you still don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Same question that I gave to FordBuyer - how much does Ford lose on each Flex? If you don't know then stop making baseless claims. I will answer your question with another question......if the sales volume is so low at it is with Flex, how much money can you make on this vehicle and is it enough to cover MCE's every few years and complete redesigns every 6 years? I doubt if any Flex profits comes close to covering those costs. As it is, Ford sure doesn't spend much money marketing Flex other then special lease deals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I will answer your question with another question......if the sales volume is so low at it is with Flex, how much money can you make on this vehicle and is it enough to cover MCE's every few years and complete redesigns every 6 years? I doubt if any Flex profits comes close to covering those costs. As it is, Ford sure doesn't spend much money marketing Flex other then special lease deals. You need to stop thinking of this as a standalone product. It has four other siblings in which to share costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 How much does Ford profit on each one? You can't answer that question. You can guess, theorise, or just plain pull numbers out of your ass, but you still don't know. Well, given Ford's current management, if Ford says they are committed to a refresh, I would say chances are far better that it's making money as opposed to losing it, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 other then special lease deals. ...in Metro Detroit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) How much does Ford profit on each one? You can't answer that question. You can guess, theorise, or just plain pull numbers out of your ass, but you still don't know. Exactly. But I'm not the idiots proclaiming that it should be killed because of low volume. I do know one thing: Mulally doesn't keep vehicles that don't make money. And they certainly would not do a MCE on such a vehicle unless they believed it had significant profit potential. And i have heard from more than one person that they are working on a MCE for the Flex and MKT and that the Flex in particular was stunning. And this was way before this announcement. Edited January 11, 2011 by akirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 You need to stop thinking of this as a standalone product. It has four other siblings in which to share costs. Chrysler announced today at auto show that it spent $1 billion on updating the new 300. If Ford wants to spend that kind of money on Flex in a few years to keep it competitive with such low sales, then I guess they will do it. I don't see the business case for it, but it's their money. I'd rather see that money go to their high volume vehicles and even Lincoln that needs product badly. And I'm disappointed that Ford showed nothing new about Lincoln at this very influential show. Where the hell is the MCE MKS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I will answer your question with another question......if the sales volume is so low at it is with Flex, how much money can you make on this vehicle and is it enough to cover MCE's every few years and complete redesigns every 6 years? I doubt if any Flex profits comes close to covering those costs. As it is, Ford sure doesn't spend much money marketing Flex other then special lease deals. Damn - do they not teach reading in Metro Detroit? If they sell 10K at $10K profit each (or 20K at $5K each), that's a profit of $100M annually. If a MCE every 4 years cost $200M then that still leaves a profit of $50M every year. Cut it in half and it's still profitable. Given the high ATPs and lack of big rebates I don't think that's an unreasonable calculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Exactly. But I'm not the idiots proclaiming that it should be killed because of low volume. I do know one thing: Mulally doesn't keep vehicles that don't make money. And they certainly would not do a MCE on such a vehicle unless they believed it had significant profit potential. And i have heard from more than one person that they are working on a MCE for the Flex and MKT and that the Flex in particular was stunning. And this was way before this announcement. So give us your "theory" why Ford sales are up 21% and Flex sales are down 12%. What is good about that. And AGAIN, this is before 2011 Explorer hit dealers. What am I missing here? You mean Ford sales executives are not concerned about sales laggards, and vehicle that has never met sales expectations. I know some of you think Explorer will actually help Flex sales. I don't see how. I see the Flex helping Explorer sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Damn - do they not teach reading in Metro Detroit? If they sell 10K at $10K profit each (or 20K at $5K each), that's a profit of $100M annually. If a MCE every 4 years cost $200M then that still leaves a profit of $50M every year. Cut it in half and it's still profitable. Given the high ATPs and lack of big rebates I don't think that's an unreasonable calculation. Uh Einstein, how much does a full redesign cost which comes up about every 6 years in this ultra competitive auto market? That comes up in 2013-14 time frame. I believe Borg and I stated Ford will scrap any fully new Flex by then considering the dismal sales. Like I stated, bring on a an all new Fusion wagon for a lot less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 So give us your "theory" why Ford sales are up 21% and Flex sales are down 12%. What is good about that. And AGAIN, this is before 2011 Explorer hit dealers. What am I missing here? You mean Ford sales executives are not concerned about sales laggards, and vehicle that has never met sales expectations. I know some of you think Explorer will actually help Flex sales. I don't see how. I see the Flex helping Explorer sales. Would Ford rather sell more vehicles than less vehicles? Of course! What difference does it make going forward whether sales are up or down over last year? Not much, as long as the current volumes are enough to sustain profitability. You guys are trying to put parameters around success like current volume and year over year change when none of that matters. F150 sales went from 1M per year to half that - should they have killed it? There is a volume below which the Flex won't be profitable. When it hits that with no prospects for improvement it will die. The fact that Ford is not only not killing it but giving it a MCE says they haven't reached that point yet. How will Explorer help Flex sales? Simple. People buy a Flex because they want unique styling. Not everyone knows about the Flex, but most do know the Explorer name. When these people go to see the new Explorer they see the Flex and "gotta have it'. The Explorer creates traffic and that leads to more sales. You and Borg don't seem to understand why the Flex and Explorer are different and appeal to different people. And until you understand that then it will never make sense to keep both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Chrysler announced today at auto show that it spent $1 billion on updating the new 300. If that's true (which I highly doubt), they sure didn't get much for their money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY93SHO Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Would Ford rather sell more vehicles than less vehicles? Of course! What difference does it make going forward whether sales are up or down over last year? Not much, as long as the current volumes are enough to sustain profitability. You guys are trying to put parameters around success like current volume and year over year change when none of that matters. F150 sales went from 1M per year to half that - should they have killed it? There is a volume below which the Flex won't be profitable. When it hits that with no prospects for improvement it will die. The fact that Ford is not only not killing it but giving it a MCE says they haven't reached that point yet. How will Explorer help Flex sales? Simple. People buy a Flex because they want unique styling. Not everyone knows about the Flex, but most do know the Explorer name. When these people go to see the new Explorer they see the Flex and "gotta have it'. The Explorer creates traffic and that leads to more sales. You and Borg don't seem to understand why the Flex and Explorer are different and appeal to different people. And until you understand that then it will never make sense to keep both. There you go, using that silly "logic" thing again. :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 If that's true (which I highly doubt), they sure didn't get much for their money. Hey, they got sparkly LEDs around the headlights! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Chrysler is surely spending quite a bit of money to change, cars, that...frankly, don't look as if they have changed hardly.... $1Bil wow... I doubt that Ford would spend that much in regards to the Flex. I think maybe proper powertrain improvements, and tech add ons, should keep it alive for another 2-3 years easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Uh Einstein, how much does a full redesign cost which comes up about every 6 years in this ultra competitive auto market? It costs whatever it costs, for a "full redesign", whatever that is. You seem to have forgotten that Ford has publicly announced that the MK T will be the Town Car replacement for livery. Now, assuming anything is dangerous, but let's assume that Ford is telling us the truth. So, that means they are committed to a large Lincoln AWD platform for the next 6-10 years. So, building a large Ford station wagon at the same plant will probably happen. Whether it's called a Flex or not, who knows? Maybe they'll offer sliders and call it a Flex-van. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Maybe they'll offer sliders and call it a Flex-van. Flexstar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Flexstar. Aeroflex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 The highlighted part says exactly where FB gets the 2,000/month number.... What i love is that this 2,000 figure shows up all over the place: 7 passenger utilities, entry-lux midsize sedans, lux sedans, halo cars...doesn't matter as long as they all sell 2000/month. That's all anyone needs to know to quickly conclude FordBuyer pontificates because he likes to type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 doesn't matter as long as they all sell 2000/month. When does Ferrari go out of business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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