NickF1011 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I concluded a long time ago that brake pads are cheaper to replace than clutch disks, I'd say that depends on the vehicle. And it's not like a downshift puts any sort of considerable wear on a clutch. :shrug: The main reason I tend to avoid downshifting to slow down too often is that too many idiots tailgate and won't be expecting you to slow down unless they see brake lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 you should be in the habit of using your brakes to slow down because 1. brake lights 2. easier to modulate up to threshold of traction 3. 4 wheel braking it may not seem to matter in an every day braking situation, but during an emergency it will, and if your instinct should be to use your brake pedal instead of downshifting I don't think anyone is suggesting always using downshifting to slow down. The times I find myself doing it most often is when pulling off on exit ramps that I am familiar with, where the safe speed is well known, and therefore so is the downshifting pattern. It's ridiculous to think that anyone would automatically reach for the shift knob instead of stomping on the brakes in an emergency situation. But then again, you're king of posting the ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I'd say that depends on the vehicle. And it's not like a downshift puts any sort of considerable wear on a clutch. You downshift correctly, no problem. Do it wrong, and you won't believe the wear on the disk, pressure plate and throw-out bearing. It's great for the clutch business. A friend just started with a big-rig parts supplier. Just discovered that big-rig clutches run from around $1,500 to around $4,000, depending on the clutch and whether new or re-built, plus RE & RE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 You downshift correctly, no problem. Do it wrong, and you won't believe the wear on the disk, pressure plate and throw-out bearing. It's great for the clutch business. A friend just started with a big-rig parts supplier. Just discovered that big-rig clutches run from around $1,500 to around $4,000, depending on the clutch and whether new or re-built, plus RE & RE. Suppose I had always done it right then. The original clutch in my Cobra lasted 100,000 miles (probably could have gone longer if I had kept the engine closer to stock). Not to mention that's the car I learned to drive a manual in. Its first 2000-3000 miles certainly weren't very kind. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Who needs a clutch for anything other than starting out? Just float the gears. My old Pinto had a wide ratio 4 speed that was super easy to float the gears on, and most manuals in pickups can be floated fairly easily. But I guess with keeping track of what is in all of your cupholders, keeping up with your text messages, and making sure your Ipod is feeding the latest tunes to the audio system does not leave enough of an attention span to pay attention to road speed and engine speed to float the gears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notquitesane Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Once you learn how to shift, you don't even think about the manual transmission. Operating the clutch and the shifter becomes instinct and you don't even think about it. It is not a distraction. I plan on buying a 6th gen F-Series truck by the end of the year, it will have a manual in it. I miss shifting sooooo badly! I will then teach my other half and my room mate how to drive a manual. It's an important skill to learn and everyone should learn it, in my opinion. As for choosing to buy one, it's personal preference. it may not seem to matter in an every day braking situation, but during an emergency it will, and if your instinct should be to use your brake pedal instead of downshifting Wow is all I can say. lol No comment needed... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 In related news.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Did you mean their first car will not be a manual? Whoops. That's exactly what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 personally, I believe they will still be around for practical reasons. As engines get smaller, the manual suddenly becomes desireable to many to get the most power out of the engine. Take out a Fiesta in manual and auto and then tell me which moves the little thing better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) I'd say that depends on the vehicle. And it's not like a downshift puts any sort of considerable wear on a clutch. You downshift correctly, no problem. Do it wrong, and you won't believe the wear on the disk, pressure plate and throw-out bearing. Suppose I had always done it right then. I agree with Edstock. If you're good at matching RPMs, then downshifting doesn't present that much of a problem, same as upshifting. I am pretty good at it. I can have a full drink without a lid and never slosh while shifting, but I still don't downshift (except for reasons already mentioned) My rotors never have got warped, so I'm left largely with the cost of pads (about $20-30 for both R/L). I've been through 3 or 4 (can't remember) sets of pads in 175K. After I waited too long to replace my last set of pads, I had to replace my original stock rotors on my Ranger at about 140,000 miles. I've never replaced the rear shoes, but I think I'm going to this summer. Edited February 16, 2011 by RangerM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 personally, I believe they will still be around for practical reasons. As engines get smaller, the manual suddenly becomes desireable to many to get the most power out of the engine. Take out a Fiesta in manual and auto and then tell me which moves the little thing better. But at the same time if the transmission was programmed to be more aggressive shifting then just improve MPG's I'm sure they would be pretty close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT_MAN Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Lots of interesting comments here. I learned how to drive stickshift on a manual transmission on my dad's 99 Mustang GT. I haven't driven many other sticks (04 F-250, 08 Mazda 6, 98 Mitsubishi 3000GT .. can't really thing of anything else?), but I find the clutch on the GT to be quite heavy compared to the other cars I have driven with manual transmission. In any case, my dad got tired of driving the Mustang in his hour long commute to work each day (stop and go traffic every day), so he sold it to me. Now I own it, but I am not driving it because I can't afford the insurance (just built a home and I'm living on a razor thin budget - maybe when I turn 25 I will get an insurance break?). In any case, I love stick shift and I honestly regret the fact that I purchased my Fusion with the V6 automatic (regret other things ... like no ABS, but you've heard that story before). I can only imagine how much more fun I would have had with a I4 + the 5spd manual. Not to mention the better mileage. Everybody is entitled to their opinion ... but I think that Americans just continue to get lazier and lazier. Thousands are killed on the road doing everything BUT driving. You have to think if they were driving a stickshift, even if they were mediocre at shifting and clutching, it would require more of their attention and therefore less of their texting, cellphoning, and whatever else they do. Then again, there are people like my first girlfriend who text, cellphone, and eat while shifting ... and you'll always have those kind too. Maybe doing anything except driving in the car should be banned? But then we have a nanny law that can't be enforced easily. Alas, the problems of a modern society. Edited February 16, 2011 by SVT_MAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Everybody is entitled to their opinion ... but I think that Americans just continue to get lazier and lazier. Thousands are killed on the road doing everything BUT driving. Doing more and more things in the same amount of time? That doesn't sound like "lazy" to me. But seriously, if you break down the number of automotive deaths by cause, how high up do you think distracted driving is compared to * drunk driving * excessive speed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjl Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Manual transmission cars may be *handicapped* by the EPA test depending on whether or not the manufacturer submits a custom shift schedule for the test. To do that, an upshift light must be installed in the instrument panel, and a shift survey must be performed to see what percentage of drivers follow the upshift light. Then the EPA test is run with both the standard shift speeds (15, 25, 40, 45, 50 mph) and following the upshift light, and a weighted average taken based on the shift survey percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjl Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 At this point, I don't know of any car that comes without power steering or brakes. And once the power-assist has failed, the leftover system isn't set up for proper unassisted function. The last car I drove without power steering or brakes (and was decent at it) was a 1971 Plymouth. Old VW Beetles did not have power steering or brakes. Of course, being light cars with rear engines helped, as did the large (by today's standards) steering wheels. Some Honda Civics up until 2000 had non-power steering. With small steering wheels, today's cars may be hard to handle if the power assist fails, especially by drivers of low physical fitness and strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 To improve the skills (and attentiveness) of the driving public my own opinion is that the more "work" it takes to drive the car the less distracted the driver will be. Work tends to focus attention to the task at hand. So should we require all drivers license exams to be taken in a 67 Custom with a 3 on the tree, manual brakes and manual steering? And include parallel parking on a hill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 So should we require all drivers license exams to be taken in a 67 Custom with a 3 on the tree, manual brakes and manual steering? And include parallel parking on a hill? LOL Only thing I think you went over board on is manual brakes...steering I'm on the fence about...I drove a CRX back in the day and it wasn't too bad except when parking doing less then 5 mph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 There are so many variables that go into choosing a manual or not. The type of driving you do with vehicle. Pleasure driving or commuting everyday in heavy traffic with lots of lights thrown in and stop and go. Rural driving and how much of that you do. What type of vehicle you buy. Obviously, today even with high gas prices, most auto buyers prefer trucks, SUV's, and CUV's with many not even offering manual choice. Basically it comes down to what fits your needs. I know my Taurus SES is fine with auto and prefer that in rather pedestrian sedan, even with a few sporting pretenses. Now on my Porsche Boxster, I wanted no part of the Tiptronic auto. Either manual or no buy. It's a pleasure driver only for rural, curvy roads on warm afternoon with top down and delightful flat 6 howling sounds. My Mustang 5.0 Convertible I used to own was manual only and wanted no part of power sapping torque converter on any Mustang V8. It was a pleasure, summer driver only also like Porsche. So in my view there is still a place for manuals on certain types of vehicles no matter how limited it is. I sure hope enough buy them to keep the offering viable into the future. However, I'm afraid PDK/dual clutch autos with launch control will make pure manuals obsolete sooner rather than later. Another reason to like older vehicles more and more. The final hope for manuals hanging in there may be that they are standard equipment on vehicles like Fiesta, Mustang, Fusion, and Focus and not a high priced option. I sure hope Ford keeps offering them and that they don't become extinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 Lots of interesting comments here. I learned how to drive stickshift on a manual transmission on my dad's 99 Mustang GT. I haven't driven many other sticks (04 F-250, 08 Mazda 6, 98 Mitsubishi 3000GT .. can't really thing of anything else?), but I find the clutch on the GT to be quite heavy compared to the other cars I have driven with manual transmission. In any case, my dad got tired of driving the Mustang in his hour long commute to work each day (stop and go traffic every day), so he sold it to me. Now I own it, but I am not driving it because I can't afford the insurance (just built a home and I'm living on a razor thin budget - maybe when I turn 25 I will get an insurance break?). In any case, I love stick shift and I honestly regret the fact that I purchased my Fusion with the V6 automatic (regret other things ... like no ABS, but you've heard that story before). I can only imagine how much more fun I would have had with a I4 + the 5spd manual. Not to mention the better mileage. The SN95 Mustangs have a non hydraulic clutch on them. I had a 98 Mustang GT that I replaced with a 02 SVT Focus. The GT sat for a month before I sold it and I had to move it after driving the Focus for a couple weeks...OMG I thought something was broken on the GT...the clutch pedel was PIA to use vs. the Focus. Yes your insurance should go down when you hit 25 and even more when you hit 30. The strangest thing I had happen was my insurance going down $500 a year when I went from my Focus to my 06 Mustang GT! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 To improve the skills (and attentiveness) of the driving public my own opinion is that the more "work" it takes to drive the car the less distracted the driver will be. Work tends to focus attention to the task at hand. So should we require all drivers license exams to be taken in a 67 Custom with a 3 on the tree, manual brakes and manual steering? And include parallel parking on a hill? LOL! Now that requirement would keep a lot of drivers, especially teenagers off the road for a long time. I got my license in 1964 when D.E. was part of high school curriculum in Detroit. You learned on a Plymough Valiant with push button auto on a practice course with traffic lights and then final few hours on road. My parents at time had a 1962 Ford Galaxie 500 with 390C.I. V8 and Cruiso-matic auto and I drove that until they gave it to me when I started college. The first car I bought was a 1968 Cortina GT off Ford's B plan lot and it had 4 speed manual. I taught myself and never remember stalling the vehicle even while learning. My buddies had GTO's and 396 Chevelle SS's with manuals and I learned watching them. My next two vehicles were 1971 and 1975 Capris and they were manuals also. Driving is certainly more dynamic with a manual and so much more interactive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) The SN95 Mustangs have a non hydraulic clutch on them. Ugh. Don't I know it! The clutch in my Cobra has never been light. It sure as heck isn't now with the Spec Stage 3+ in there. I really need to put an adjustable quadrant in there so I can at least shorten the throw a little... *Adding to shopping list* Edited February 16, 2011 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donaldo Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 personally, I believe they will still be around for practical reasons. As engines get smaller, the manual suddenly becomes desireable to many to get the most power out of the engine. Actually you will see that most of the top MPG cars now have CVT transmissions and not manuals. CVTs have now equaled/bettered the efficiency of manuals with the convienience of an automatic (and even better drivability due to 'infinite' gear ratios and lack of shifts). CVTs can be made 'sporty' with a manual control mode. Plus, e-CVTs like Ford hybrids have need no maintenance over their lifetime. 'Convential' 6+ speed automatics are even closing in on the efficiency advantage of manuals. I think the original post was correct, even top performance cars like F1/WRC ditched manual trannies a long time ago because computers can shift faster than humans. However if people still buy manual transmissions, then manufacturers will keep them coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Actually you will see that most of the top MPG cars now have CVT transmissions and not manuals. CVTs have now equaled/bettered the efficiency of manuals with the convienience of an automatic (and even better drivability due to 'infinite' gear ratios and lack of shifts). CVTs can be made 'sporty' with a manual control mode. Plus, e-CVTs like Ford hybrids have need no maintenance over their lifetime. 'Convential' 6+ speed automatics are even closing in on the efficiency advantage of manuals. I think the original post was correct, even top performance cars like F1/WRC ditched manual trannies a long time ago because computers can shift faster than humans. However if people still buy manual transmissions, then manufacturers will keep them coming! not totally correct, CVTS are not at the top of the pyramid by any means....a well sorted / ratioed regular Auto trans has been proven to be superior....why do you think CVTYs havent become universal if deemed they get netter mileage.....I just had a 500 flashback...oh, and they suck to drive, they never sat well with me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT_MAN Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Ugh. Don't I know it! The clutch in my Cobra has never been light. It sure as heck isn't now with the Spec Stage 3+ in there. I really need to put an adjustable quadrant in there so I can at least shorten the throw a little... *Adding to shopping list* I personally enjoy the non-hydraulic clutch ... granted, before I took up running, I would sometimes feel my calf muscles tire or tense up a bit. Noah: I'm not sure what your point is. Does drunk driving kill more people per year? Yeah. Probably - I didn't look up the stats. Distracted driving is still a problem, is it not ... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I personally enjoy the non-hydraulic clutch ... granted, before I took up running, I would sometimes feel my calf muscles tire or tense up a bit. It's not bad unless I'm sitting in stop-and-go traffic. Then I find myself just wanting to pull onto the shoulder and wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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