PREMiERdrum Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 As Lincoln sits at the beginning of the latest in a string of reinvention plans, it's easy to be skeptical. We've seen designs, marketing plans, and executives all change in hopes of invigorating Ford's top-shelf brand. Despite all the previous efforts, the brand has slipped from market leader to also ran. With the announcement of Mercury's execution in 2009, Ford committed to a reimagined, revitalized Lincoln. As the fruits of that commitment are just starting to trickle into the spotlight, plenty of armchair CEO's are quick to pronounce any new Lincoln DOA. I like to fancy myself a realist, with perhaps ever-so-slight optimistic pretensions, but I see some solid reasons why this turnaround plan has the juice to succeed where the others didn't. Why I Believe in Lincoln: Continued at LINK - The Alternator Blog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The market is more forgiving than the pundits imagine, all Lincoln has to do is start producing vehicles luxury buyers want, not what Ford thinks it can fudge from existing Ford originator vehicles with just a few skin and trim changes... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) I'm still mixed on the prospects for Lincoln, so much depends on final execution of products that are still a few years away, not even the MKZ is a final look at their mission. But the marketing message for Lincoln seems allot of the same, and that's what concerns me. I gather Lincoln sees itself as a traditional non-sporting luxury brand, much like it always has been, but how much long-term or stable growth is there in old-school luxury? I think it's wise for Lincoln to exploit its core values, and perhaps there isn't really a cultural problem, but I'm skeptical since I've been driving Lincolns for years and if people don't like them now, when will they? Nothing they are doing signals a dramatic change from my perspective. Edited February 9, 2012 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm still mixed on the prospects for Lincoln, so much depends on final execution of products that are still a few years away, not even the MKZ is a final look at their mission. But the marketing message for Lincoln seems allot of the same, and that's what concerns me. I gather Lincoln sees itself as a traditional non-sporting luxury brand, much like it always has been, but how much long-term or stable growth is there in old-school luxury? I think it's wise for Lincoln to exploit its core values, and perhaps there isn't really a cultural problem, but I'm skeptical since I've been driving Lincolns for years and if people don't like them now, when will they? Nothing they are doing signals a dramatic change from my perspective. Well, I think one group of people will start liking them once they stop looking like obviously tarted-up Fords. Remember: It's not going to require some titanically huge increase in market share to make Lincoln sustainable. Incremental sales improvements for each vehicle line with each redesign are probably all that is really needed in the near (6-7 year) term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Well, I think one group of people will start liking them once they stop looking like obviously tarted-up Fords. Remember: It's not going to require some titanically huge increase in market share to make Lincoln sustainable. Incremental sales improvements for each vehicle line with each redesign are probably all that is really needed in the near (6-7 year) term. It's easy to believe that MKS and perhaps MKT will see at least slight gains in sales with their MCE's, and once you add that to what I expect to be sizable gains in MKZ sales and two new crossovers (MKEscape and Aviator, which are both coming), Lincoln brand sales domestically should easily be where Audi and Cadillac sit presently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) It's easy to believe that MKS and perhaps MKT will see at least slight gains in sales with their MCE's, and once you add that to what I expect to be sizable gains in MKZ sales and two new crossovers (MKEscape and Aviator, which are both coming), Lincoln brand sales domestically should easily be where Audi and Cadillac sit presently. Eh, honestly, I expect MKS sales to drop further once the new MKZ is launched. MKT will continue to rot as well. MKZ and the new smaller crossover are the only places I see them gaining anwhere over the next 24 months. But, those gains should be significant. Edited February 9, 2012 by NickF1011 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Eh, honestly, I expect MKS sales to drop further once the new MKZ is launched. MKT will continue to rot as well. MKZ and the new smaller crossover are the only places I see them gaining anwhere over the next 24 months. But, those gains should be significant. Yes, I agree. Most of the growth will come from small SUV/CUV vehicles that are fuel efficient. That is where the bread and butter is for many luxury companies. Sedans not so much. That's why Lincoln is smart to concentrate more on entry level CUV and small sedan segment now as opposed to large sedan market. That can come later. A really good MKZ and MKE can make up more than 50% of total brand sales. Look at Cadillac....CTS and SRX make up most of their sales and keep brand viable. Now after many years they get help with XTS and ATS. Lincoln right now needs a nice one, two punch with new MKZ and MKE. Then the brand can hold on until reinforcements arrive. And I've not forgotten the MKX as it adds value also. To me, the MKS is basically a hold over until new Taurus platform arrives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Yes, I agree. Most of the growth will come from small SUV/CUV vehicles that are fuel efficient. That is where the bread and butter is for many luxury companies. Sedans not so much. That's why Lincoln is smart to concentrate more on entry level CUV and small sedan segment now as opposed to large sedan market. That can come later. A really good MKZ and MKE can make up more than 50% of total brand sales. Look at Cadillac....CTS and SRX make up most of their sales and keep brand viable. Now after many years they get help with XTS and ATS. Lincoln right now needs a nice one, two punch with new MKZ and MKE. Then the brand can hold on until reinforcements arrive. And I've not forgotten the MKX as it adds value also. To me, the MKS is basically a hold over until new Taurus platform arrives. Well, it's not that I think there's no market for the larger luxury vehicles. I just think there's no market for the woefully inadequate large vehicles that Lincoln will be selling alongside the much more appealing MKZ and (hopefully as appealing) small CUV over the next couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Well, it's not that I think there's no market for the larger luxury vehicles. I just think there's no market for the woefully inadequate large vehicles that Lincoln will be selling alongside the much more appealing MKZ and (hopefully as appealing) small CUV over the next couple of years. C'mon, Nick, woefully inadequate? That's a stretch for the 2013 MKS. The style might not be appealing to many here, but on paper it's at least equal to the all new XTS; a small victory considering the MKS is only an MCE of a product designed during the capocalypse. I think that the new MKZ will be great to increase brand interest and showroom traffic, but I certainly don't expect MKS' sales levels to dip beyond their already basement-level figures. Inversely, I can see plenty of the over-60 set coming in to check out the new Z and driving out in the larger, likely "more car for your money" MKS. You know what they say about a rising tide... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Well, it's not that I think there's no market for the larger luxury vehicles. I just think there's no market for the woefully inadequate large vehicles that Lincoln will be selling alongside the much more appealing MKZ and (hopefully as appealing) small CUV over the next couple of years. Looking at Ford brand, most of its sales come from Escape, Fusion, and Edge. Taurus and Flex not so much. So not surprising that MKS and MKT not so much for Lincoln. Unfortunately for Lincoln sales right now, it has no small CUV and present MKZ while its best seller is not competitive and not anywhere near its potential to my eyes anyway. I fully expect the new MKZ to increase its sales by 50% or more, and for the MKE to be Lincoln's best seller. Even though the MKX is basically an Edge, I see it as competitive and worthy for considertaion when buying luxury CUV. Right now, MKX is only vehicle in LIncoln's lineup that I feel is competitive. By this time next year or thereabout, I'm hopeful that there will be three competitive vehicles in Lincoln's lineup....MKZ, MKE, and aforementioned MKX. I really think it's going to take a new platform to get the MKS on my list anyway. And the MKT is beyond hope. It needs to be replaced by MKExplorer/Aviator or whatever. In fact, I really think it would behoove Ford to put next Taurus on RWD platform so that it could offer Lincoln their version based upon new tophat and interior and stronger motor. Really differentiate big sedan from midsizers and give Ford opportunity to offer 5.0 V8 in its flagship sedans. Ford doesn't need another FWD sedan. It has enough right now and is strong in that segment. Chrysler has proven that there is a market for domestic RWD sedans. V8 would be nice option for those who want it and willing to pay the cost of fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Looking at Ford brand, most of its sales come from Escape, Fusion, and Edge. Taurus and Flex not so much. So not surprising that MKS and MKT not so much for Lincoln. Forgetting about Explorer and F-series, no? A large, Explorer-sized SUV could do very well for Lincoln, as could a redesigned Navigator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 C'mon, Nick, woefully inadequate? That's a stretch for the 2013 MKS. The style might not be appealing to many here, but on paper it's at least equal to the all new XTS; a small victory considering the MKS is only an MCE of a product designed during the capocalypse. I think that the new MKZ will be great to increase brand interest and showroom traffic, but I certainly don't expect MKS' sales levels to dip beyond their already basement-level figures. Inversely, I can see plenty of the over-60 set coming in to check out the new Z and driving out in the larger, likely "more car for your money" MKS. You know what they say about a rising tide... Given the terrible interior packaging of the MKS and the new features that will be available on the MKZ that the MKS won't offer anytime soon, I do see the MKS losing ground to MKZ in the coming year. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Given the terrible interior packaging of the MKS and the new features that will be available on the MKZ that the MKS won't offer anytime soon, I do see the MKS losing ground to MKZ in the coming year. I agree. I sat in the MCE MKS at the NAIAS, and opened the trunk and checked it out thorougly. I'm sure the MCE MKS will drive better than present one, but it's still basically the same vehicle in most everyday ways. Hopefully, the new MKZ will get more people to look at the MKS, but as NIck says the interior/trunk packaging is just not there for a vehicle that large. The present Taurus suffers from same fate. Really no need for another FWD sedan with bigger outside dimensions, but inside dimensions that are not much bigger than most midsizers and in some ways worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) The MKZ and MKS do not clash as much as people think they do. The design, materials, and overall experience is very different. Using stats to compare the cars is very misleading. I would easily choose the MKS over the new MKZ, I don't expect that to change with the new model. But what is harder for me to do is choose a sedan over a crossover. I would much rather have the MKX over the MKS, which prices about the same or more, and I think most customers in this type of luxury field are shopping that way now. The MKX is also a high-end Lincoln, it's not the MKZ which is really the only entry-level luxury car Lincoln has. Lincoln is in bad need of an entry-level luxury SUV, the lack of one leaves Lincoln at a huge competitive disadvantage (same for Caddy, although their SRX is dirt cheap by comparison). As for the MKT, I gotta tell you, it is easily Detroit's nicest luxury vehicle. It's SUCH a shame it was designed so badly, the car is an absolute dream to be in and drive. I am seriously considering one with the 2013 update. Ideally, Lincoln will just launch an Explorer and get it done right. The MKT really is the vision of Lincoln I want, just not the bad designers. Edited February 9, 2012 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Chrysler has proven that there is a market for domestic RWD sedans. To what? Fleets? The Charger only sold about 5K units last month..and I'd venture alot of its sales are to Police fleets Most full sized car sales are only 4-5K a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Much of the conversation is "When this"..."When that"..."In a few years"..."When the___ comes out"... That prostitute is standing too far deep in the sidewalk and in this industry, you gotta show the goods, and AT the curb. In other words, we need product NOW.... Everything else, is rainbows and unicorns at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hey antaus, how long does "now" last? There's no point in rushing it for today's 'now', when that's going to compromise the product for the next few year's worth of 'now's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hey antaus, how long does "now" last? There's no point in rushing it for today's 'now', when that's going to compromise the product for the next few year's worth of 'now's I'd rather have a year to year updating and new product then shove everything out the door at one...keeps the interest up in the brand. Look at it like this: MKZ This Fall MK Escape next Spring MK Explorer next Fall New MKS Spring 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Much of the conversation is "When this"..."When that"..."In a few years"..."When the___ comes out"... That prostitute is standing too far deep in the sidewalk and in this industry, you gotta show the goods, and AT the curb. In other words, we need product NOW.... Everything else, is rainbows and unicorns at this point. Can we please remember that we are still only about a year out from the original announcement of the Lincoln revitalization plan? It is simply impossible for an entirely new lineup of vehicles to magically sprout from the ground in that amount of time. No other automaker has ever done it. Lincoln won't either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Can we please remember that we are still only about a year out from the original announcement of the Lincoln revitalization plan? It is simply impossible for an entirely new lineup of vehicles to magically sprout from the ground in that amount of time. No other automaker has ever done it. Lincoln won't either. Some people refuse to acknowledge that Ford's commitment to Lincoln is totally different than what they've done over the last 30 years and that they only just started on this revitalization plan less than a year ago. They're either ignorant of the history or they're just impatient or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 What's making it different this time around ? Last time it was "Oh we are bringing new vehicles, we need to upgrade the dealerships, new dealership experience"...then came the LS, and let it rot in the vine. Now we have the same speech. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm optimistic that they will have new products years from now, I do support them, and really only way to go is up (cept when speaking about the MKT), and the new MKZ Should help, but I wouldnt rely too much on that either....but there's always a clout of doubt because the boy has cried wolf before, thats all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 What's making it different this time around ? Seriously? Do we have to go through this AGAIN? What's different..... Mulally is in charge now. HUGE difference. They killed Mercury to focus solely on Lincoln. They hired a Lincoln exclusive design team. They hired a team of over 100 people with experience from other luxury makes to manage the turnaround starting with the dealership experience. They've committed to 100% unique sheetmetal across the lineup. They've committed to unique drivetrains and features. They're building 7 Lincoln vehicles - way more than they've ever had in the past. If that's not enough for you to at least believe their commitment this time around is totally different then I don't know what you want. The ONLY thing they're not doing at this point is creating brand new bespoke RWD platforms which some people think is a requirement to succeed in the luxury market which is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I still have to see what the production MKZ looks like. I truly love the concepts design, but how the actual production model is executed will be key in my eyes. I dislike the recent MCE to both the MKS and MKT (actually have hated the MKT from day one). So I don't hold out much hope for those models until a complete redesign. All the potential future products (MKEscape & Aviator) and updates to the Navigator, I'll simply have to wait and see. Dislike the style of the new Escape, so from an appeal standpoint, a lot of style improvements will need to be made. Not the biggest fan of the new Explorer, but the Aviator could be a sales hit for Lincoln if executed properly. And the Navigator, we'll just wait to see what Ford/Lincoln end up doing with it. A lot of if's in my book. Can't say I believe or disbelieve. Just know I've been disappointed by Lincoln many times in the past. So until they change that trend, I can't hold out too much hope for them. Edited February 10, 2012 by V8-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Seriously? Do we have to go through this AGAIN? What's different..... Mulally is in charge now. HUGE difference. They killed Mercury to focus solely on Lincoln. They hired a Lincoln exclusive design team. They hired a team of over 100 people with experience from other luxury makes to manage the turnaround starting with the dealership experience. They've committed to 100% unique sheetmetal across the lineup. They've committed to unique drivetrains and features. They're building 7 Lincoln vehicles - way more than they've ever had in the past. If that's not enough for you to at least believe their commitment this time around is totally different then I don't know what you want. The ONLY thing they're not doing at this point is creating brand new bespoke RWD platforms which some people think is a requirement to succeed in the luxury market which is ridiculous. Don't forget theres's no PAG anymore either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Don't forget theres's no PAG anymore either. How could I forget that? No Jaguar to compete with internally. No Aston Martin either. Or Land Rover. So the only thing that's changed is.......everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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