Source: Next-gen Flex dead, Conventional minivan coming

[OHV 16V]

A curious side thought--I wonder if Ford goes with a shorter Galaxy on this CD4s (based on CD3s nomenclature for Edge), and a longer minivan on this side of the Atlantic.

 

I was thinking the same thing. A la Caravan/Grand Caravan idea.

[Biker16]

The S-Max & Galaxy are terrible 7-passenger vehicles, that's why they can share a rear subframe with a SEDAN, and the Odyssey's IRS doesn't look anything like a DOUBLE WISHBONE to me. It looks a trailing arm and a control arm with lateral links, and it's about as compact as a Mac strut setup, with the exception of an upper control arm instead of the strut. And the last I checked the Pilot is NOT a SEDAN.

 

how are they terrible for 7 passegner vehicle? specifics..

 

why would a minvan not be able to share a front subframe with a large car?

 

Do the Flex and the Taurus share Front subframes?

 

The suspension package has *clearly* been compromised for packaging purposes.

 

has the control blade IRS also been compromised because it is a very compact IRS system too?

 

And as far as subframes are concerned, these are the Odyssey/Pilot front and rear subframes:

the subframes on the pilot and oddessy are not the same they are similar but not the same. the ground clearance requirements of an SUV require a different subframe.

 

And this is the Accord front and rear subframe:

 

the accord is a midsized car and it's track is too narrow to be used for a minivan or any much wider vehicle.

 

Odds are Ford will follow the Honda path and share extensively between an Explorer/Edge *derivative* of CD4 and this minivan (which means the Explorer will drop its sedan derived rear subframe). But they will *not* share front & rear subframes/suspensions with the Taurus, Fusion or Mondeo.

 

the sub frames of a high ground clearance CUV are different from that of a car or a minivan.

exapmples of car and minivans sharing suspension and sub frames:

 

Focus/C-max 7

Mazda3/mazda5

mondeo/galaxy

fiesta/b-max

Taurus/TaurusX/Flex?

[RichardJensen]

You're just so far off base on this, I don't even know where to start. I seriously don't know where to start.

 

the subframes on the pilot and oddessy are not the same they are similar but not the same. the ground clearance requirements of an SUV require a different subframe.

 

You're saying that these two vehicles CAN'T share a subframe

 

Pilot ground clearance: 7.97"

Odyssey ground clearance: 4.6"

 

But these two vehicles CAN

 

Explorer ground clearance: 7.6"

Taurus ground clearance: 5.1"

 

Please enlighten me as to the exact point when you can no longer share subframes. Is it 2.75"? 3"? 3.12"? 3.14159"?

Edited September 26, 2012 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

 

ideas for Minivan

 

2-3-2 seating configuration.

 

B-pillar-less design.

Standard wheelbase ROW and NA.

NA version to have longer rear overhang and Stowable 3rd row.

EU version to continue with existing 3rd row configuration.

[RichardJensen]

Eight seat option or go home. Only two seats in the rear is a non-starter.

 

Do it the right way or don't do it at all. Forget this crap about trying to share as much as possible with the sedans. Ford sells over 200k CUVs a year in NA on what could easily be a shared platform with a ~80k/year minivan, ~150k global, maybe, but probably not.

Edited September 26, 2012 by RichardJensen

[BrewfanGRB]

In retrospect, the product planners at Chrysler realized before anybody else (customers included) just how much of a game changer the 2nd slider was. It quickly became standard across all entries.

 

This is really true of that segment from the very beginning. Whether it's because planners, designers, engineers, etc had been working on the minivan since its invention by Chrysler (essentially) or because Chrysler simply made the decision to dedicate resources to make it work, Chrysler's always made the best product in the segment, IMO.

 

Now, I have no use for such a product, but my stepdad has held onto a 2000 Grand Caravan (with something like 260k miles on it) precisely because...it's ridiculously useful. You can cart 7 people around (between his family from England and the people on my mom's side of the family, it's occasionally necessary) or you really can haul a 4x8 sheet flat in it. I can't tell you how much drywall and other stuff that thing has hauled. Of course now, it's absurdly obsolete because it has the "old style" removable seats, none of the safety features, etc...but the guy is 67 and English. He hates convenience and new.

 

Anyway, if I WERE to buy one, it would be the T&C hands-down. Regardless of how good Ford makes it, the category is at best stagnant and most likely, shrinking. I don't even know if you CAN come up with an innovation that would be a big enough game-changer to move the needle. Could they steal share? I'm sure. But I don't see how they can expand the segment. I don't feel good about this plan at all....except for the fact that costs can be amortized over other models in other markets and that some of those costs are what would've gone to the all-new Flex anyway.

[PREMiERdrum]

Now, I have no use for such a product, but my stepdad has held onto a 2000 Grand Caravan (with something like 260k miles on it) precisely because...it's ridiculously useful. You can cart 7 people around (between his family from England and the people on my mom's side of the family, it's occasionally necessary) or you really can haul a 4x8 sheet flat in it. I can't tell you how much drywall and other stuff that thing has hauled. Of course now, it's absurdly obsolete because it has the "old style" removable seats, none of the safety features, etc...but the guy is 67 and English. He hates convenience and new.

 

My mother-in-law, whose questionable life choices I've discussed here ad nauseum, went out and lost her shirt trading in her Fusion on a new Odyssey. She had herself convinced that she needed something big now that she has 3 grandchildren (our 2nd was born July 6, my sister-in-law had her first July 12th). She walked out of the local bloodsucking Honda store with a midlevel (leather, moonroof, and DVD, though no foglights) Odyssey, trading in her Fusion, plus their "extra" car ($2,000 Suzuki wagon), and walking out with a $719 monthly lease payment for 36 months.

 

It's nice and roomy, but I'd rather lease a Range Rover for $700/month.

[BrewfanGRB]

My mother-in-law, whose questionable life choices I've discussed here ad nauseum, went out and lost her shirt trading in her Fusion on a new Odyssey. She had herself convinced that she needed something big now that she has 3 grandchildren (our 2nd was born July 6, my sister-in-law had her first July 12th). She walked out of the local bloodsucking Honda store with a midlevel (leather, moonroof, and DVD, though no foglights) Odyssey, trading in her Fusion, plus their "extra" car ($2,000 Suzuki wagon), and walking out with a $719 monthly lease payment for 36 months.

 

It's nice and roomy, but I'd rather lease a Range Rover for $700/month.

 

Good Lord. I know you've tried, but your wife's poor mother made what by anyone's standards is a terrible decision. Nothing's wrong with an Odyssey (I guess) but $719 a MONTH?? And you're right...I've got a ton of vehicles I'd love to drive that I could have for that money.

 

It's just unfortunate, I guess. Some people just aren't well-informed and just do whatever they're told.

[sullynd]

walking out with a $719 monthly lease payment for 36 months.

 

:fear:

 

That's crazy! You could probably rent one from Enterprise for three years and pay less!

[Hydro]

So, Ford drops the Ranger with guaranteed sales for a "chance" at a new mini van?? Good lord, just stop with the mini vans. Your reputation for minivans was ruined with the windstar. Even if it does perform & drive better there is no way the import, T&C minivan loving crowd will consider a Ford minivan. I always see asian folks driving minivans, not gonna get those sales either. The post office doesn't have any money so you won't be able to fleet dump to them again.... which begs my question again, WHY???

[silvrsvt]

So, Ford drops the Ranger with guaranteed sales for a "chance" at a new mini van??

which begs my question again, WHY???

 

Only reason the Ranger sold was because it was cheap. A new minivan makes more sense because the lion's share of sales are going to be in the EU and China and a NA minivan would only sell in about the same numbers as the Flex does (IMO), but would be cheaper overall to do since all the hard "work" is done and funded by other markets already.

[ds91776]

The Ranger would have small margins in the US, if any, at a price range that would avoid treading on the F-150's turf. A new Ford North American Style Minivan "Galaxy" would bring in new customers that want or need a minivan...which is a far greater population than people who want or need a small truck. Sorry, but it is true. And I don't think the Windstar legacy is that bad. I think the Windstar was competitive for the 95-96 model years and for most of the second generation's life span. It was Ford's general downward spiral and the lackluster Freestar that did Ford in in the minivan segment. In my opinion if Ford had stuck with the Windstar name the Freestar wouldn't have been panned as much because with Freestar it sounded like Ford was trying to pass on an update as an all new model.

 

I for one am happy that Ford will be making a NA style minivan again.

[FordBuyer]

So, Ford drops the Ranger with guaranteed sales for a "chance" at a new mini van?? Good lord, just stop with the mini vans. Your reputation for minivans was ruined with the windstar. Even if it does perform & drive better there is no way the import, T&C minivan loving crowd will consider a Ford minivan. I always see asian folks driving minivans, not gonna get those sales either. The post office doesn't have any money so you won't be able to fleet dump to them again.... which begs my question again, WHY???

 

Bring the RWD Aerostar back...at least it could haul a big boat too with its human cargo. The FWD minivans of today are not near as multifunctional as the old Aerostar. In fact, Ford kept it around awhile for that purpose even after he Windstar hit dealers. Still remember them hauling heavy loads up North after Windstar was out for awhile.

[Anthony]

My mother-in-law, whose questionable life choices I've discussed here ad nauseum, went out and lost her shirt trading in her Fusion on a new Odyssey. She had herself convinced that she needed something big now that she has 3 grandchildren (our 2nd was born July 6, my sister-in-law had her first July 12th). She walked out of the local bloodsucking Honda store with a midlevel (leather, moonroof, and DVD, though no foglights) Odyssey, trading in her Fusion, plus their "extra" car ($2,000 Suzuki wagon), and walking out with a $719 monthly lease payment for 36 months.

 

It's nice and roomy, but I'd rather lease a Range Rover for $700/month.

 

First rule of Minivan Club

 

NEVER lease a minivan. Faster then average depreciation makes leasing one ridiculous.

 

Second rule of minivan club. Always buy one when it is 1 year old. You pay half price.

[silvrsvt]

Bring the RWD Aerostar back...at least it could haul a big boat too with its human cargo. The FWD minivans of today are not near as multifunctional as the old Aerostar. In fact, Ford kept it around awhile for that purpose even after he Windstar hit dealers. Still remember them hauling heavy loads up North after Windstar was out for awhile.

 

WTF dude...its called buy an Explorer or buy a TC, which is a far more flexible product for people who need a small van to haul around things internally. All the Aerostar was a Ranger with a box on top of it...IE very crude.

 

The last Ford minivan came out in 2007 and I'm sure we wont see a new minivan till 2014 at the earliest, so whatever bad memories people had of Ford Minivans will be long gone by then. If people had such great memories, the Explorer wouldn't be selling as well as it does after its Tire fiasco 10 years ago...etc...

[PREMiERdrum]

First rule of Minivan Club

NEVER lease a minivan. Faster then average depreciation makes leasing one ridiculous.

Second rule of minivan club. Always buy one when it is 1 year old. You pay half price.

 

She knew we would tell her it was a bad idea because she didn't call us until the deal was done and the papers were signed. When we told what we thought, she droned on the salesman's spiel about how it was such a good deal, "the buyout at the end is only $20,000! It holds its value much better because it's a Honda!". I shook my head and told her I would be there to comfort her when she realized she just got hosed.

 

She likes to get new cars every year or 2. She'll be stuck in this ugly Odyssey until the end of time.

[Anthony]

I don't think we have anything to worry about bad minivan memories. The market has changed drastically since the Aerostar was last on a Ford lot (as new). SUV/CUVs made it obsolete, and today's minivans are just as capable with much much more comfort.

[Anthony]

She knew we would tell her it was a bad idea because she didn't call us until the deal was done and the papers were signed. When we told what we thought, she droned on the salesman's spiel about how it was such a good deal, "the buyout at the end is only $20,000! It holds its value much better because it's a Honda!". I shook my head and told her I would be there to comfort her when she realized she just got hosed.

 

She likes to get new cars every year or 2. She'll be stuck in this ugly Odyssey until the end of time.

 

Ouch. Sorry. That payment is just astronomical. I think it's safe to say she'll heed your advice next time.

[MGolden]

I would like to see Ford offer a nice passenger version of the Transit, with sliders. In short wheeld base,low roof form, its not that big. The options for increased cargo and/or seating would be great. It could be be, with all of the powertain offerings the Transit Euro has, a vehicle that merges a bit of Expedition, Flex, mini-van. That would be a nice replacement for my Quigley when I am done with it.

 

-Matt

[fordmantpw]

She knew we would tell her it was a bad idea because she didn't call us until the deal was done and the papers were signed. When we told what we thought, she droned on the salesman's spiel about how it was such a good deal, "the buyout at the end is only $20,000! It holds its value much better because it's a Honda!". I shook my head and told her I would be there to comfort her when she realized she just got hosed.

 

She likes to get new cars every year or 2. She'll be stuck in this ugly Odyssey until the end of time.

 

Salesmen that take advantage of people like that need to be taken out behind the wood shed and shot in the crotch!

 

Seriously, $700/month for a lease AFTER trading in a Fusion and another car that should have covered the down payment? WOW!

[PREMiERdrum]

I fear I'm earning a Hamilton, but since it's discussing her ill-advised minivan purchase, I'll carry on...

 

Salesmen that take advantage of people like that need to be taken out behind the wood shed and shot in the crotch!

 

Seriously, $700/month for a lease AFTER trading in a Fusion and another car that should have covered the down payment? WOW!

 

She had something like $4000 negative in the Fusion, she's only had it a year.

 

When she first started thinking she needed a 3 row, she looked at an Explorer (fell in love, couldn't get a deal anywhere close), then a Traverse. Lease special on the Traverse at the time was $189/mo for 24 months with $2000 down. With all her negative equity and interest rate hit, that went up to around $500 a month and she walked. This was before the babies were born. Once they came, her maternal desire to transport three little ones at the same time took over and she started searching for anybody who would deal with her. The Honda store gladly took her money.

[fordmantpw]

I fear I'm earning a Hamilton, but since it's discussing her ill-advised minivan purchase, I'll carry on...

 

 

 

She had something like $4000 negative in the Fusion, she's only had it a year.

 

When she first started thinking she needed a 3 row, she looked at an Explorer (fell in love, couldn't get a deal anywhere close), then a Traverse. Lease special on the Traverse at the time was $189/mo for 24 months with $2000 down. With all her negative equity and interest rate hit, that went up to around $500 a month and she walked. This was before the babies were born. Once they came, her maternal desire to transport three little ones at the same time took over and she started searching for anybody who would deal with her. The Honda store gladly took her money.

 

I wasn't thinking negative equity. That would explain some of it, but still, that's just ridiculous!

 

I guess that once a month she hauls all 3 kiddos will be be worth that $700!

[Mark B. Morrow]

First rule of Minivan Club

 

NEVER lease a minivan. Faster then average depreciation makes leasing one ridiculous.

 

Second rule of minivan club. Always buy one when it is 1 year old. You pay half price.

 

Third Rule of Minivan Club: Never talk about Minivan Club...especially around cute single women.

[PREMiERdrum]

Third Rule of Minivan Club: Never talk about Minivan Club...especially around cute single women.

 

Show up with a nice enough (Ford?) minivan and impress the MILF club.

 

First sign I was getting old: I caught myself looking at the moms, not the daughters.

[RichardJensen]

Guess what?

 

 

We're there now.