Ford reported to either kill Lincoln or make Lincoln Stang

[duncan36]

Well the MKZ is taking the current Ford-Lincoln dynamic to its peak. If the MKZ isnt a roaring success in the marketplace I think we should all come to the consensus that the current Ford - Lincoln dynamic isnt working and the structure of Lincoln needs to be totally reformed.

[fordmantpw]

Well the MKZ is taking the current Ford-Lincoln dynamic to its peak. If the MKZ isnt a roaring success in the marketplace I think we should all come to the consensus that the current Ford - Lincoln dynamic isnt working and the structure of Lincoln needs to be totally reformed.

 

The MKZ isn't the peak of what Ford has planned for Lincoln. It is the beginning. The MKZ is the first vehicle that Wulff has gotten his hands on, and he didn't get his hands on it until late in the game.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Of course it matters who engineers a platform. If Lincoln isnt engineering platforms its not building cars its a dumping ground for Ford product. Look at all the crappy Lincoln products with consumerate crappy sales like the MKS, MKT for evidence of how what Ford is doing with Lincoln isnt working at all.

Then look at companies like Audi which are roaring successes for how to organize a luxury brand within a larger automotive group successfully.

Audi has the A4/5/6/7/8/Q5 which are now their own platform. I think that's great.

 

Every Audi from A3 on down is a luxurious derivative of a small Volkswagen car (be it Jetta, Golf, or Polo). The Q7 was built off the Touareg platform. And the R8 is based on the Gallardo... but that doesn't argue against Audi.

 

Could Lincoln develop its own car platform and milk it for what it's worth? Sure. Are they going to do it? Only if it makes fiscal sense, which for the next XY years may end up being a solid "no." Trust me, they've seen right up close how well the Sigma platform worked for Cadillac... and the fact that it was over budget, underutilized, and on its way out once the CTS gets moved to Alpha.

[akirby]

Well the MKZ is taking the current Ford-Lincoln dynamic to its peak. If the MKZ isnt a roaring success in the marketplace I think we should all come to the consensus that the current Ford - Lincoln dynamic isnt working and the structure of Lincoln needs to be totally reformed.

 

I think we've come to the consensus that you're just another platform snob and a negatard who doesn't really understand automotive engineering.

[NickF1011]

Well the MKZ is taking the current Ford-Lincoln dynamic to its peak. If the MKZ isnt a roaring success in the marketplace I think we should all come to the consensus that the current Ford - Lincoln dynamic isnt working and the structure of Lincoln needs to be totally reformed.

 

What you are asking Lincoln to do is exactly what they are doing. You do realize that the 2013 MKZ isn't the first product out of the new Lincoln design studio right? It's the last vehicle out of the Ford design studio done for Lincoln.

[Deanh]

Of course it matters who engineers a platform. If Lincoln isnt engineering platforms its not building cars its a dumping ground for Ford product. Look at all the crappy Lincoln products with consumerate crappy sales like the MKS, MKT for evidence of how what Ford is doing with Lincoln isnt working at all.

Then look at companies like Audi which are roaring successes for how to organize a luxury brand within a larger automotive group successfully.

then theres Acura................DOH!

[jpd80]

There is no argument that more differentiation is needed, Ford has committed to doing that with future Lincolns

and unlike previous attempts to remake the brand, a lot of project "distractions" like other brands have been removed.

 

While the '13 MKZ shares quite a bit with the new Fusion, it is still a very different car to the 2012 MKZ - that is key here.

That IMO, buys Lincoln a couple of years while other new era Lincolns arrive.

[RichardJensen]

The key is that Lincoln's existing range needs to improve faster than the competition.

 

Seems like a vague statement, but you can put that in practicable steps:

 

- more features

- more distinctive styling

- better materials

 

All of that requires significant upfront investment, but all of which should pay back those investments by greater sales volume and higher transaction prices.

[NickF1011]

The key is that Lincoln's existing range needs to improve faster than the competition.

 

While it's true that they need to improve faster than competitors, that doesn't necessarily mean it will cost more to do it than competitors. Even the competitors need to redesign and change things. I wouldn't think it would cost significantly more to completely redesign something crappy to make it good than to redesign something that's already good and make it still good. Lincoln just has to make sure they go far enough with the things they are redesigning while the "other guys" can probably get away with incremental improvements in many areas. It'll cost more than Lincoln is used to, but that's the price of admission to the segment.

Edited January 9, 2013 by NickF1011

[All-Or-Nothing]

The MKZ isn't the peak of what Ford has planned for Lincoln. It is the beginning. The MKZ is the first vehicle that Wulff has gotten his hands on, and he didn't get his hands on it until late in the game.

 

 

This is what the Haters fail to accept. They continuosly harp about old Lincoln cars which obviously weren't differentiated much and lacked appeal.

 

When will they let it go and realize this 2013 MKZ is the first step in Lincolns tranformation. A damn good step I might add also.

[ZanatWork]

Ummm...first of all, I'd love to know, specifically who the "haters" are in that case.

Secondly, the MKZ reviewers haven't exactly sung huge praises for its differentiation.

The truth is, for "haters", "neutrals", "Lincoln fans", "Ford fans", and "shameless yes-men" and anyone else...the success or failure will tell its tale in upcoming sales reports.

This is what the Haters fail to accept. They continuosly harp about old Lincoln cars which obviously weren't differentiated much and lacked appeal.

 

When will they let it go and realize this 2013 MKZ is the first step in Lincolns tranformation. A damn good step I might add also.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Ummm...first of all, I'd love to know, specifically who the "haters" are in that case.

 

Secondly, the MKZ reviewers haven't exactly sung huge praises for its differentiation.

 

The truth is, for "haters", "neutrals", "Lincoln fans", "Ford fans", and "shameless yes-men" and anyone else...the success or failure will tell its tale in upcoming sales reports.

 

 

Reviewers are hardly representative of the buying public. A brief glance at sales figures would tell anyone that. However there are the reviewers who bend over backwards trying to make the MKZ sound horrible and bash Lincoln just because. Edmunds is a good example. They fly off the handle talking about tires being used as a trick. Even tho those tires are a legitimate option along with a handling package. Hell....I knew about this package being available long before they did and those bozos still couldn't find out before they went on a rant. No retraction either after they were proven to be full of ***t. The car was able to glide thru the slaloms faster than an M5. If that doesn't highlight what Lincoln will be capable of doing than what exactly will. This was not even a dedicated performance package. It was merely a handling package for a sportier ride.

 

Time will tell what success Lincoln will have but the "haters" refuse to accept that it won't happen tomorrow. Essentially they are saying the 2013 MKZ is not the magical, conquer all cars vehicle they imagined in their sleep so Lincoln as a whole is a failure. Sheesh...there has only been one NEW car released to the public and essentially it's not even dealerships yet. Lincoln as a whole was up year over year in 2012 so they are slowly moving in the right direction.

 

Crying and moaning about platform sharing is probably the stupidest thing around here. It is Horrible for Lincoln but everyone else gets a pass.

 

Not enough defferentiation is another stupid argument. 2013 MKZ looks NOTHING like the Fusion. Inside or out. People don't give a rat's butt if the Fusion has options that the MKZ does. As long as the MKZ has it they don't care. They wanted a Lincoln and not a Fusion. I won't even get into the price arguement because if you want it you will pony up the cash. Plain and simple.

 

So much crying around here over PRE 2013 Lincolns. Yes they were obvious rebadges, yes they were not different enough, yes FORD let them wither on the vine, yes some were polarizing and a tad bit unattractive. If a person can only focus on what used to be Lincoln then they will never see or accept what Lincoln WILL become. I have seen and heard about some very good things to come with Lincoln and I am impressed already. Lincoln will be fine regardless what most haters think.

[BORG]

The one thing I've learned from shopping around is that Ford and Lincoln offer more and better tech than the most expensive competition, while the direct competitors are woefully under-teched and outdated, although they tend to be better at the art & craft of design and coachwork. There is a huge difference between what an MKZ offers, and an Audi A6...but tech isn't one of them. Although the MKZ is a beautiful design right down to the tech that enables it, the perfection and material craftmaship just is nothing remarkable for a car in this price range (this is where that 'not special' feeling comes in for many reviewers). In many ways, it lags behind cars like the MKS and MKX despite the similar top-end pricing. For me, this is where Lincoln MKZ disappoints the most. I deeply admire the design and what they are trying to achieve, but they need to do better with the materials, colors, details, etc. But regardless, Lincoln's innovative and progressive design and non-convention is what excites me the most. It's that identity that will make Lincoln special for all of its owners and that's how it will find new ones...I hope anyway...works for me.

Edited January 10, 2013 by BORG

[jpd80]

The one thing I've learned from shopping around is that Ford and Lincoln offer more and better tech than the most expensive competition, while the direct competitors are woefully under-teched and outdated, although they tend to be better at the art & craft of design and coachwork. There is a huge difference between what an MKZ offers, and an Audi A6...but tech isn't one of them. Although the MKZ is a beautiful design right down to the tech that enables it, the perfection and material craftmaship just is nothing remarkable for a car in this price range (this is where that 'not special' feeling comes in for many reviewers). In many ways, it lags behind cars like the MKS and MKX despite the similar top-end pricing. For me, this is where Lincoln MKZ disappoints the most. I deeply admire the design and what they are trying to achieve, but they need to do better with the materials, colors, details, etc. But regardless, Lincoln's innovative and progressive design and non-convention is what excites me the most. It's that identity that will make Lincoln special for all of its owners and that's how it will find new ones...I hope anyway...works for me.

Given that current MKZ buying trends are indicating over 50% of buyers are opting for the high series reserve package,

I think your comment about Lincoln needing to use more and better materials is paramount to forging that new identity.

Even if those interior upgrades came as an early MCE, I think that change of perception would be breathtaking....

Edited January 10, 2013 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

Secondly, the MKZ reviewers haven't exactly sung huge praises for its differentiation.

 

Nor should they. The 2013 MKZ is the last of the old, not the first of the new. If we see the MKC and it's still more of the same, then yes, I'll be truly concerned.

[ZanatWork]

...and another:

"Is this the year Lincoln finally unveils a proper rear-wheel-drive concept that points to the direction of the next Continental? And will it be a true Lincoln for the hardcore aficionados who are clamoring for it? We’ll see about that too."

http://www.autoextremist.com/

 

Peter De Lorenzo is on top of this stuff better than most, for those of you unfamiliar with him...and this was part of the current front page story on autoextremist. Just sayin'.

[ZanatWork]

"Automotive enthusiasts have been clamoring for Lincoln to launch a rear-wheel drive model and their calls have been heard – to a point. Ford has a rear-wheel drive coupe under consideration for the Lincoln brand, however, its development will be contingent on the success of the new MKZ and the upcoming compact crossover model.

 

If all goes according to plan and the two new Lincoln models are considered a success, a Mustang-based coupe could be destined to debut as a 2016 or 2017 model. But those thinking that it’ll come soon, will have to patiently wait. The American automaker will launch an all-new MKS, Navigator, and MKX before the rear-wheel drive coupe makes an appearance.

It’s not likely that Ford will make any significant investments into the Lincoln brand until it has the belief that its revival plan is working and will be successful."

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/12/ford-mustang-based-lincoln-coupe-planned.html#more-173224

[NickF1011]

...and another:

 

"Is this the year Lincoln finally unveils a proper rear-wheel-drive concept that points to the direction of the next Continental? And will it be a true Lincoln for the hardcore aficionados who are clamoring for it? We’ll see about that too."

 

http://www.autoextremist.com/

 

Peter De Lorenzo is on top of this stuff better than most, for those of you unfamiliar with him...and this was part of the current front page story on autoextremist. Just sayin'.

 

What exactly is a "hardcore Lincoln aficianado"?

[ZanatWork]

Ask him.

 

What exactly is a "hardcore Lincoln aficianado"?

[ZanatWork]

"Ford better step up their luxury performance game. Otherwise Lincoln stands to be left behind and forgotten as the luxury regime that just couldn’t keep up."

 

http://www.stangtv.com/news/does-lincoln-need-rear-wheel-drive/

[ZanatWork]

"TheDetroitBureau.com spoke with sources at Lincoln and Ford, who claimed the American premium brand is working on, perhaps more than one, rear-wheel-drive vehicle."

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/04/rwd-lincolns-are-coming-fate-depends-partly-on-mkz-success/

 

Yep. There's more. Some talk about work already in progress, others with the Mustang-based coupe rumors. I'd say that some of the hotly-contested resources were prioritized for some rwd work...but I do agree that success of the "Z and C" will be important for Lincoln's future, period.

Of course, those of you so determined that fwd-based models that are largely underselling need all the resources can march to Dearborn and explain it to Ford.

[92merc]

"Ford better step up their luxury performance game. Otherwise Lincoln stands to be left behind and forgotten as the luxury regime that just couldn’t keep up."

 

http://www.stangtv.com/news/does-lincoln-need-rear-wheel-drive/

And if Ford/Lincoln was to use "keeping up with" as their game plan, they'd fail from the get go. I don't think Lincoln should be chasing the Cadillac/BMW crowd like the so called auto experts think. Lincoln needs to come up with vehicles that are different not only from Fords, but from everyone else. I like the idea that they aren't shooting for higher end of luxury. I think affordable luxury is where they'll make the most return on investment short term. If that works out, then start working upward. You have to start the ladder at the first rung. Not trying to leap to the fourth rung. You'll just fall on your face...

[ZanatWork]

The next rung, priced alongside the MKZ and ES, involves the 3 series, the IS, the A4, the C-CLass, and the ATS...all of which work to have sweet driving and performance characteristics, dominated by rwd.

The rung above that? 5-series, Audi A6, the GS, E-Class, and CTS. Again, dominated by rwd. The MKS is finding NO sales footing here thus far.

[Deanh]

The next rung, priced alongside the MKZ and ES, involves the 3 series, the IS, the A4, the C-CLass, and the ATS...all of which work to have sweet driving and performance characteristics, dominated by rwd.

 

The rung above that? 5-series, Audi A6, the GS, E-Class, and CTS. Again, dominated by rwd. The MKS is finding NO sales footing here thus far.

ok, I'll go out on a limb here, I dont beleive when buying a vehicle people basically give a RATS A$$ about which end propells the vehicle, more important are looks and the image the vehicle projects....and thats a MAJOR reason German vehicles take up a majority of your list,,,,out and out VANITY, nothing more, nothing less....only a minute % are worried about ultimate dynamics...actually, thats not a limb, thats based on witnessing the publics buying practices for over 25 years......

[RichardJensen]

Yeah, I remember when similar outlets were yakking away about Lincoln making the Concept C.